22 Panels Book Club: Brit's Cabinet - Speak Up & 4 Kids Walk Into a Bank

Brit & Tad discuss Rebecca Burgess' Speak Up and Tyler Boss & Matthew Rosenberg's (& Thomas Mauer's) 4 Kids Walk Into a Bank, with a special focus on Autism/Neurodivergence in society, culture, and their own personal experiences. Then they open Brit's Cabinet and pick out their next read. (SPOILER! {but not really for regular listeners of 22 Panels} it's Paul Chadwick's Concrete)

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Transcript

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Tad Eggleston: Then I'm slightly better at it.

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Tad Eggleston: Good morning, everybody. Welcome back to Britt's Cabinet on 22 panels. This is the episode that we recorded in reverse. So we already recorded our back end of this episode, where we're going to choose our next books. But now we're going to talk about. Speak up and 4 kids walk into a bank. So my 1st question, as always, Britt, why did I pair 4 kids walk into a bank with, speak up.

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Brit’s iPad Pro 15: This one feels a little bit easier to me. It bears a bit of a summary of the 2 books, so the 1st one that I'll summarize is speak up! It's by Rebecca Burgess, she is, or they are, a British writer and illustrator. I've had the pleasure of being on panels with them to talk about autism and comics

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Brit’s iPad Pro 15: I came across speak up, I believe, and I was just doing the research for my panel that I give at comic cons autism and comics. And it is the story. It's a it's a Ya graphic novel

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Brit’s iPad Pro 15: drawn in a I don't know cartoonish style rather than a than a photorealistic style in the in the style of comic book. So it's it.

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Brit’s iPad Pro 15: It reminds me a little bit of Lynn Thompson's style that she used for better or for worse.

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Brit’s iPad Pro 15: so speak up is the story of a girl in high school who is autistic and stims and wears noise, canceling headphones, and is either picked on or ignored by her classmates. At least, that's that's you know, the way she feels about it. And when she goes home. She and her buddy do videos for like Youtube style performance videos of songs.

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Brit’s iPad Pro 15: In the, with this identity of this character called Lq. ELLE. Hyphen, Q. And Lq. Becomes extremely popular at her. Her school. So it sort of has the flash Thompson setup

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Brit’s iPad Pro 15: where they will pick on the person, not realizing that their secret identity is this person they admire. And so it goes. It's a movie style book, meaning that it is. It is not serialized. It is about one big event, the one big event being the Talent show, and whether or not

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Brit’s iPad Pro 15: the lead character and her friend. Mia, is the lead character. Mia and her friend are going to

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Brit’s iPad Pro 15: be a part of the talent show which would involve essentially coming out to the school as her secret identity. And it's it's that adventure, and it's the twists and turns of friendship at that age and inclusion. And there is direct engagement with the issue of autism in the story, and it is specifically designed for a slightly younger age group than the characters in the work.

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Brit’s iPad Pro 15: and it is paired with 4 kids walk into a bank, 4 kids walk into a bank. The subtitle is a torrid tale of child crime, and it is the story of essentially.

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Tad Eggleston: Arguably the greatest crime comic ever written. I'm just throwing that out there.

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Brit’s iPad Pro 15: Wow, all right. Okay.

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Tad Eggleston: Oh, yeah, let me see your perfect.

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Tad Eggleston: I love this. Wow, no. You go ahead and summarize.

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Tad Eggleston: Yeah, I have some rights for myself.

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Brit’s iPad Pro 15: Many times on the air. It's not even funny. I was talking about it yesterday.

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Brit’s iPad Pro 15: and so it is the story of 4 kids. It's got sort of a sort of a goonies vibe in that. It's kids having an adventure that's older than they are, and active engagement with pop culture in their fantasy world. But it's these 4 kids, and they're kind of the outcasts at the school and in their own lives a little bit. And even among each other.

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Brit’s iPad Pro 15: And they stumble across a mystery that implicates one of their fathers, and they they roughly figure out that their father isn't gonna potentially be involved in a bank robbery, and they're worried about the father getting in trouble.

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Brit’s iPad Pro 15: So they decide that the way to protect the father is to try and go rob the bank themselves, and it it leads to them engaging with the the actual bank robbers who are trying to recruit the father and the kids getting in over their heads and and coming up with what seems like a good plan to them.

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Brit’s iPad Pro 15: But it is also an adventure of high school kids who are young high school kids who feel like outcasts in their own world trying to find their way, having this big adventurous. It's also a movie style comic book in that. It's 1 big story.

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Tad Eggleston: Mountains.

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Brit’s iPad Pro 15: Serialized.

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Tad Eggleston: Starring liam neeson.

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Tad Eggleston: Well, they've already filmed time.

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Brit’s iPad Pro 15: So, so I guess it's about the grandfather instead, the father, but still.

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Tad Eggleston: Did change it to Grandfather.

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Brit’s iPad Pro 15: Yeah, he's the right personality maybe the wrong age to have a you know, a tween daughter.

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Tad Eggleston: Change, that.

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Brit’s iPad Pro 15: And to me it it strikes me as being a a more American book than than you know. Uk, so we'll we'll see if they have him do an American accent, or if they just leave it alone, I'm sure they'll leave it alone.

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Tad Eggleston: I I know it is in Ireland.

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Brit’s iPad Pro 15: Oh, okay, well, I don't know. That doesn't. That's sometimes that's for tax credits, right? But.

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Tad Eggleston: Yeah, no, I don't. I have no idea whether

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Tad Eggleston: I know that when I was talking to Matthew Rosenberg he talked about he and Tyler got to go see the set, and Tyler was amazed at some of the attention to detail. Like there was a house in the book, the the bully's house that they break into. He modeled after his his grandmother's house, and they rebuilt it

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Tad Eggleston: for the.

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Brit’s iPad Pro 15: So we got there.

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Tad Eggleston: Sitting there going? What's my grandmother's house?

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Tad Eggleston: Wow!

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Tad Eggleston: Ireland.

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Brit’s iPad Pro 15: Wow! That's really interesting. So so they're so the pairing is that there are 2 stories about female protagonists at roughly the same age, trying to find their way in their world where they're kind of nerds, and they they get picked on by jocks and or the equivalent of the modern equivalent of Jocks. And they have one big event looming that they have to decide whether they're gonna try and take it on. And once they've decided they are going to take it on, how does it play out?

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Brit’s iPad Pro 15: And the so so that is broadly, I think. Why, the the 2 get paired. There's a there's speak up is specifically about autism, and there are oblique autism aspects of 4 kids walking to a bank. It's not entirely central to it.

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Tad Eggleston: First, st maybe all of them.

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Brit’s iPad Pro 15: It may different different neurodiversities, but it is not the focus, like the.

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Tad Eggleston: Absolutely.

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Brit’s iPad Pro 15: Is, is present as like a character aspect, but not really something that they take on, or that is, that is a focus really of any plot point. Even

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Brit’s iPad Pro 15: see, it's more. Just see, I love this.

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Tad Eggleston: I love this, because both times we've yeah. Both times we've done this. Now you've managed to look at the bigger picture thing, and I see it, and I totally agree with you. But but I've been deliberately

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Tad Eggleston: trying to let my my autistic connection making brain make the decisions.

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Tad Eggleston: So I actually picked 4 kids walk into a bank like 2 pages in to speak up.

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Tad Eggleston: because it talked about how it was easier for them to express themselves through gaming rather than.

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Brit’s iPad Pro 15: Hmm.

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Tad Eggleston: And it reminded me of the opening sequences of each

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Tad Eggleston: issue of 4 kids walk into a bank where where they're talking while playing D, and D, they're talking while video gaming. They're talking while Rc. Car racing. They're talking while

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Tad Eggleston: planning the bank robbery, using action figures. That.

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Brit’s iPad Pro 15: Well, that's probably that's really that's fun as a device, because it's not central. I I don't think to the the overall story for kids. It's definitely the the point of speak up, but it is certainly a commonality that you'll see, so in speak, up at school she doesn't entirely. Mia doesn't entirely feel like herself. She feels like she's masking, which is a term in autism for

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Brit’s iPad Pro 15: trying to hide your behaviors that make you stand out as autistic so that you can fit in with society very broadly. And it's something that is typically seen. It's nowadays. It's typically spoken with derisively at the time, 20 years ago, at a time 20 years ago, it was the goal of autism therapy to try to mask. And so but it is. It has now been widely acknowledged as a painful thing for autistic people to have to go through and in speak up. It's something.

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Tad Eggleston: Necessary evil. I need to know how to do it.

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Brit’s iPad Pro 15: Necessary. Evil, I think, is, is subjectively, I think how autistic folk will talk about it, that that, in order to, you know, not get beat up at school in an unfair world.

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Tad Eggleston: Well, I hope to God managing technique.

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Tad Eggleston: The the goal is not to have to to use it on that level, because that's exhausting. That's what I did.

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Brit’s iPad Pro 15: Well, exhausting is what happens in speak up so a really interesting phenomenon. Well, I'm interested in talking about the pairing of the book, and then I want to come back to the masking part. But she masks at school. She feels like herself when she's making her song videos, which are kind of silly eighties.

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Brit’s iPad Pro 15: I mean, it's a it's a comic book, so you don't hear it. But to me they seem like early Mtv. Throw every call, you know, Cyndi Lauper. Throw every color on your body that you can, you know, like really Peacock, and and you can see that she feels like her true self when she is making these videos, when she's directly expressing her emotions. But she's moving the way she.

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Tad Eggleston: Around autistic kids. It also just feels autistic. It's the the I like that color. And I like that color. And I like that.

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Brit’s iPad Pro 15: Fair enough. Yeah, absolutely. So. 4 kids walk into a bank. It's not about that. That's not the central theme of it or anything. But there are. It uses the device of having kids do exposition conversation, basically. With a more visual.

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Brit’s iPad Pro 15: interesting visual presentation in the comic book. And one of the ways that they do. It is they'll play a role playing game, and they'll play a video game, and the characters that they are playing will have the conversation that the real kids are actually having in somebody's living room. But instead of seeing 4 kids sitting on the couch, you're seeing an ogre.

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Tad Eggleston: I mean.

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Brit’s iPad Pro 15: Zombie talk to a skeleton.

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Tad Eggleston: I will maintain, though, that it's more than a device, because when they're not playing they have more trouble communicating with each other.

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Brit’s iPad Pro 15: Well, yeah. So I agree. And I think that's that's a point is that in the video game, when they feel safe, basically they are, they feel safer to show their true selves. One aspect of that is that one of the characters who's male presenting? I guess I'm not super familiar with the language. Plays female characters almost every time. And so, even though it's never.

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Tad Eggleston: He's male at the end when he's older, and I feel like I talked to Matt and

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Tad Eggleston: Tyler about this. He's more gender fluid than strictly binary in any way.

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Brit’s iPad Pro 15: And that comes up.

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Brit’s iPad Pro 15: But the but it stands out as something where you you're like. Oh, that that character! When given a choice of who to play

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Brit’s iPad Pro 15: right well.

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Tad Eggleston: Well, and for that matter.

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Brit’s iPad Pro 15: Susan.

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Tad Eggleston: Always plays, males.

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Brit’s iPad Pro 15: Yeah, absolutely. And so so you get a sense that in these games you are not only seeing them communicate with each other as their true selves, but also choosing who they wish they could be, and and who they maybe feel like on the inside. And so I can see the pairing, and why that connection, you know, would

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Brit’s iPad Pro 15: would would make sense. The imbalance is that it's not the point of 4 kids. It is the point to speak up.

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Tad Eggleston: I never intended for I mean even this. All came out of our first, st our 1st pairing. That was completely coincidental when we when we did. I am not Starfire, and we did oja woja, which we didn't think were going to be alike, but wound up, having the the, I immediately tied them in a way that you didn't see until I I started talking about. I can't even remember right now, but it was like, Oh.

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Brit’s iPad Pro 15: For me. I haven't done a cursory reading of Oja Woja, and it wasn't until I gave it a proper reading to talk about it with you, where I really had a much, much better understanding of what it was, and a much greater appreciation for what.

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Tad Eggleston: Oh, yeah.

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Brit’s iPad Pro 15: Doing with that book.

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Tad Eggleston: But but I but I meant I wound up feeling Oja, Woja! And Starfire had like really

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Tad Eggleston: one theme that tied. They had lots of themes that didn't tie. But but I want to say, what was it?

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Tad Eggleston: It's been so long since I read them that I can't remember right now.

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Brit’s iPad Pro 15: Well, they're both about, you know. They're both comparable to these 2 books as well in that they're about tweenish kids trying to fit in in high school, and it's it's not shocking that lots of authors would find that as fertile ground because you're forced to be to engage with people who are not like you when you're at a public school in America. At that age it's just by dint of.

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Tad Eggleston: Unless you're lucky enough to be the one that

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Tad Eggleston: I mean. It seems like, at least for those of us who are further on the outside that there are huge groups that feel like, Oh, all these people are like me, and and

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Tad Eggleston: I mean I always and I still working in high school, you know. I'll see the lunch table of 20 kids that get together every every day. I'm like, How how are 20 kids

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Tad Eggleston: always converging on the same table and talking. I can't even imagine having 20 people that I got along well enough that I wanted to spend time with all of them at once in a

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Tad Eggleston: Oh, yeah. And then you've got the other kids where it's like one person or 2 people off in a corner blocking off as much of the and them like. That's my people.

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Brit’s iPad Pro 15: When you're in your twenties, and when you're an adult in America, you have more of an opportunity to choose your own environment. When you're in high school and Junior high, you know, not only coursing with these ridiculous hormones and stuff like that, but you don't get to choose who you are physically in a room with

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Brit’s iPad Pro 15: most of your day in the most important. What you feel like at the time is the most important part of your life because you are, in fact, finding your place in the world. So it's not shocking that you know. People who like to sit down and draw comics were sitting at one table in the lunchroom, and finding themselves in conflict with people who are sitting at the table in the lunchroom, full of people who are stars of the football team, or whatever it is.

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Tad Eggleston: Right.

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Brit’s iPad Pro 15: So with these 2 books, the pairing. It it

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Brit’s iPad Pro 15: it. It raised this this bigger question to me just about target audience. So it's to me it seems very clear that the target audience for speak up is kids roughly, the age of the kids in the book, kids who are going to be experiencing what the character is experiencing soon. So, my kid, my daughter, when she read it, was 8 or 9, and the characters in the book are probably 1415 ish, you know. Sophomore ish year in high school, maybe Junior.

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Brit’s iPad Pro 15: excuse me, my cold has turned into allergies and

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Brit’s iPad Pro 15: And so it's a book that's a little bit of a roadmap for you. Here's what it might be like. Here's how you can expect to experience it. 4 kids walk into a bank also is dealing with similar themes, but it is, in my opinion, not targeted towards a younger crowd than the kids in the book. There's there's language, and there's sophistication, storytelling. And there it's it's scarier for sure than speak up. There's more violence and peril and things like that that

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Brit’s iPad Pro 15: feel like they are not targeted at the 8 year old. Now, I'm sure there are 8 year olds who would enjoy reading it and stuff like that. But it it seems more targeted at an adult readership. Remembering back to those times.

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Tad Eggleston: I do have a question, though, because you know, Bex.

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Tad Eggleston: and and you know, I mean, they're often books that are targeted at multiple groups are valuable to multiple groups, and I absolutely believe that speak up is marketed

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Tad Eggleston: towards a middle grade.

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Tad Eggleston: But I think some of the lessons in it

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Tad Eggleston: are as valuable, and there are points where I feel like it's very targeted towards the parents

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Tad Eggleston: of those kits.

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Brit’s iPad Pro 15: Absolutely. I will so speak up is a book that you'll find in middle grade libraries which has been shown.

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Tad Eggleston: Of course, it's definitely marketed right?

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Brit’s iPad Pro 15: Well, it's not only marketed, but but it's it's also whatever the reverse of marketing is, it's being drawn into these places.

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Tad Eggleston: Okay.

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Brit’s iPad Pro 15: You know, because librarians are saying like, Oh, okay, I have autistic kids in my work.

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Tad Eggleston: Right, right.

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Brit’s iPad Pro 15: And how do I? What are the books that are out there about autism that are accessible to kids of a certain age that are fun and and that are on point. You know, this really directly addresses it. It's not even like the best friend is autistic. It's the lead character. And so.

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Tad Eggleston: Friend is definitely neurodiverse on some level just.

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Brit’s iPad Pro 15: Best friend has it. I mean, the best friend is trans. In the book, or, you know.

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Brit’s iPad Pro 15: non traditional. You know, gender role situation that is not specifically addressed by the book other than see it visually. It's they never talk about it, but it is a I guess there's a little bit of like. Oh, I hate wearing these clothes, you know. The Kid has to wear a uniform to school, a man presenting uniform.

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Tad Eggleston: Myself.

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Brit’s iPad Pro 15: And then the character goes home and dresses in feminine clothing.

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Brit’s iPad Pro 15: And and Charlie, I think, is that character's name.

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Brit’s iPad Pro 15: And

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Brit’s iPad Pro 15: so so this book, so speak up, finds its way. It's it's almost a curriculum, but it's I've done a lot of reading of autistic books, and I care a lot about my angle on talking about autism broadly is neurotypical. People need to change. So I am interested in issues of representation for the purpose of making autistic people, you know, have a place where they can see themselves in their pop culture. But I am more concerned about. You know the 35

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Brit’s iPad Pro 15: and 30

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Brit’s iPad Pro 15: who are neurotypical, who need to learn how to interact with their autistic peers and speak up achieves that, in my opinion.

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Tad Eggleston: Right. I mean, I was going to say that that

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Tad Eggleston: that's exactly what I'm talking about in terms of the scenes between I mean the scenes between the mom and mia seem really directed at either. Here.

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Brit’s iPad Pro 15: Yeah.

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Tad Eggleston: Here's the thing to show your mom

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Tad Eggleston: or here, mom, this is what your kid's going through.

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Brit’s iPad Pro 15: Yeah. So let me let me summarize the the plot points of what you're talking about broadly. Which is that? So she goes to school she's me is masking all day long and something that a neurotypical person would like the characters. Mia's mother is neurotypical and doesn't fully understand me and wants me to be happy.

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Brit’s iPad Pro 15: The mother knows the path towards happiness which is, keep your head down fit in you know. Do well.

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Tad Eggleston: Mother thinks she knows the path to have.

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Brit’s iPad Pro 15: She? She? Yes, exactly. Yeah. And so so she. She has this thing in her mind that she feels like is the right way to help her daughter, and she is genuine. She wants to help her daughter.

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Tad Eggleston: Oh, yeah.

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Brit’s iPad Pro 15: And then the daughter gets in the minivan to drive home, and the daughter spent all day masking, and, as you said before, it can be exhausting. So she gets in the minivan and is exhausted. A very common thing among autistic parents is to note that your kid gets in the car and freaks out, and this was not my experience with my son. But but it's a very common one.

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Brit’s iPad Pro 15: And so you're like, what are they doing to them at that school, you know where or that daycare, or that nursery, you know school, or whatever and the Nursery School will say, Oh, your child was, you know, behaved perfectly today. And so it's that when the child gets into a

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Brit’s iPad Pro 15: safe space they can finally let go of everything they've been bottling up so that the parent ends up sort of seeing the distress.

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Tad Eggleston: But I was.

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Brit’s iPad Pro 15: So feeling it's feeling like it's targeted towards the parent when, in fact, it might not be.

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Tad Eggleston: I was also speaking, though, of the the times where the mom was coaching her on. Did you hold eye contact for 5 seconds? Did you? Did you share your ideas? Did you talk about fashion? And you and you know her thoughts and or other things are going? Oh, God, I don't want to do those things. Why do I have to do those things? Yeah.

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Brit’s iPad Pro 15: And so, as an instruction manual for a parent, it's terrific, right? It's not. It's only one person's experience, but at least it puts it in your vocabulary that some of these things are going on in your kid's head that you wouldn't necessarily understand. And so you have to translate that to your own kid and their own experiences in their own age. But one of the great things about speak up I feel very strongly about. Speak up. I think it's a wonderful book. It's super entertaining.

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Tad Eggleston: Fantastic.

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Brit’s iPad Pro 15: It's super entertaining, but it also has all these great educational and social values as well value as well, and that is one of them where you get to see a thought balloon of an autistic person.

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Tad Eggleston: Right. I mean, I'll say, say honestly that in in my wife and I reading it.

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Tad Eggleston: we were able to

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Tad Eggleston: further unpack things from my childhood that still affect me, that, like none of it, was deliberate. You know I could, you know, in the eighties, if you could speak. You weren't autistic. So nobody

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Tad Eggleston: autistic, right? So there were all sorts of things where it was, my parents expecting me to mask in some sort of way, and and and

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Tad Eggleston: thinking that anything I said to try not to have to do that was just me being

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Tad Eggleston: confrontational or oppositional and and me having the choice between being really uncomfortable or

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Tad Eggleston: pissing off my parents. Right? Yeah, and like.

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Tad Eggleston: So I mean reading this as a 40 year old. It's like, Oh.

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Tad Eggleston: those are the words that I couldn't find when I was 12. Those are the words that I couldn't find when I was 20

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Tad Eggleston: or 25

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Tad Eggleston: I mean, because there's so I mean even into your twenties. There's so much where it's like, well, nobody likes that. But you just got to do it, and I'm so they're going. No, no, you don't get it. It's not that I don't like it.

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Tad Eggleston: It's that it like is a herculean task for me to do it, or impossible period.

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Brit’s iPad Pro 15: Yeah, you know, I mean, my biggest things is is like.

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Tad Eggleston: I have fixation issues. I have a wild imagination, right? Which.

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Brit’s iPad Pro 15: He also does.

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Tad Eggleston: Right. So so like in in current times, I have discovered that if I am, I have to balance

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Tad Eggleston: knowing about what's going on in the country in the world

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Tad Eggleston: with stepping back and going. Okay. These are the things that I can and can't do.

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Tad Eggleston: But but people are oh, just don't think about it. I'm like, okay. Tell me how to do that, and I'll try it. But but like

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Tad Eggleston: those words don't compute for me. Yeah, well, just avoid it. I'm like, no, no, you don't get it. If I avoid it, my imagination will fill in the gaps even worse than what's going on.

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Brit’s iPad Pro 15: Yeah. Yeah. And you know it's in in. Speak up. You see, Rebecca

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Brit’s iPad Pro 15: taking her, taking their character, mia, on those kinds of journeys, trying to figure out the world writ small. You know the Vonnegut has this quote. I wonder if I've said it on your show before. Life is high school writ large. And

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Brit’s iPad Pro 15: so we get to see, you know, as she's trying to navigate

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Brit’s iPad Pro 15: high school. It's comparable to an adult trying to navigate life. And she, the lead character, is trying to figure out. Even the nice kids ignore her, you know, and

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Brit’s iPad Pro 15: speed

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Brit’s iPad Pro 15: and the miscommunications that happen between them are are the reasons that they're not friends. As it turns out.

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Tad Eggleston: Right, and part of that is because.

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Brit’s iPad Pro 15: But this book addresses it directly, and like helps.

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Tad Eggleston: Right.

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Brit’s iPad Pro 15: It like it introduces this problem. It helps solve it.

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Tad Eggleston: I mean, I'll actually, I'll take this into the world because it's it's as an educator it's 1 of the places that I'm most frustrated with.

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Tad Eggleston: But how education is being treated right now? And it's much more

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Tad Eggleston: apparent when you talk about things transgender or things black or brown. But in general, it's

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Tad Eggleston: we've decided that our kids shouldn't have to think about things that that might make them

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Tad Eggleston: not even uncomfortable, but but like question how they should behave.

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Tad Eggleston: We've decided that our kids

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Tad Eggleston: are the only ones that behave correctly, and for that matter, the history of education is filled with this like this is the right way. If you don't do it this way, then you're not

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Tad Eggleston: whatever you know, and and and like the counter argument.

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Tad Eggleston: you know, if you if you talk to the the. You know. The reason that anti-vax is huge is, oh, there's a surge in autism. There's a surge in autism, because we have better language for it. We have better

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Tad Eggleston: diagnostics, tools for it, and people are less afraid to admit that they have it.

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Tad Eggleston: It's not.

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Brit’s iPad Pro 15: Ted. That's part of it. But you're you're talking about a statistical thing that no one knows right.

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Tad Eggleston: Oh!

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Brit’s iPad Pro 15: There. There is the the numbers, the what you're talking about is true, but it also doesn't account for the the rise. We we don't know. We don't know.

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Tad Eggleston: Yeah.

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Brit’s iPad Pro 15: One thing we know is it's not vaccines, but other than that we don't know.

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Brit’s iPad Pro 15: And also we don't know whether it's a good thing or a bad thing honestly like there. There are people who are significantly afflicted. Their autism afflicts them in a in a way that makes it incredibly difficult to move around in the world, and maybe even in their own bodies, right? And those.

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Tad Eggleston: Absolutely.

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Brit’s iPad Pro 15: And and those we, you know.

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Tad Eggleston: It is I haven't actually seen. We don't know the that group being higher.

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Brit’s iPad Pro 15: It it. There's a the numbers are so. The increase has been so dramatic. In recent decades that no one the the any root cause.

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Tad Eggleston: But again.

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Brit’s iPad Pro 15: Fine. Doesn't explain the number.

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Tad Eggleston: I'm I'm I'm a stats. Geek.

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Tad Eggleston: Okay? And what I haven't seen in the studies is, what is the number of people

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Tad Eggleston: would have likely been diagnosed as autistic in 1980 versus. Now they use the current diagnostic data

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Tad Eggleston: to figure out. You know, they don't go through and take a sample group and go. Oh, these people would have been diagnosed in 1980. And these are these are the people that would have been diagnosed in 1980. And what's the difference between those numbers? They're taking the entire expanded diagnosis and one of the beautiful things about the Dsm 5 diagnosis. And it came about because of autistic people.

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Tad Eggleston: because autistic people jumped into the site and said, You don't get to write this without our input

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Tad Eggleston: is that ability to mask isn't supposed to prevent you from getting a diagnosis.

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Tad Eggleston: Which how many people

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Tad Eggleston: would get a diagnosis if there was no stigma, and if their their high ability to mask didn't prevent the diagnosis.

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Brit’s iPad Pro 15: But you're presenting a question as if it's a conclusion, and it's not.

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Tad Eggleston: I'm not saying it's a conclusion. I'm saying that there is no actual data to.

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Tad Eggleston: I mean, you're you're also

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Tad Eggleston: we're on different sides of the same coin. You're saying that there's no data to explain the rise. I'm saying there's no data to prove a rise.

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Brit’s iPad Pro 15: There is down at River Rise. So if you go back to 1980. But what if you go back to 2,000? It's 25 years ago.

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Brit’s iPad Pro 15: And we, we have a.

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Tad Eggleston: Dsm. 4. Criteria is significantly different from the Dsm. 5. Criteria.

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Brit’s iPad Pro 15: And if you add in Well, this is this is no longer a speak up. This is an Rfk. Junior conversation, but.

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Tad Eggleston: But.

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Brit’s iPad Pro 15: So so let's table I you know what I I know we're not done 100. I know this is gonna cause you anxiety.

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Tad Eggleston: No, not much. I mean, really, where I'm going is. And this is.

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Brit’s iPad Pro 15: Worth going. There is my is my.

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Tad Eggleston: Let let me let me explain why it's speak up to me, and we don't need to go down that road anymore. But why it is, speak up to me is

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Tad Eggleston: this is massively the difference between the conversation being had

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Tad Eggleston: by autistic people versus neurotypical people regarding autism.

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Tad Eggleston: And what speak up to me represents more than anything is, hey? You think you know what's best for me? But let me part be part of the conversation about what's best for me.

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Brit’s iPad Pro 15: Well, as far as comics are concerned, pop culturally and specifically with comics. It's 1 of the first, st if not the first, st that properly centers an autistic person in the lead role, where you are not only seeing her thoughts or seeing her actions, but you're also seeing her thoughts, which is kind of unique to comics, too, in a certain way.

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Tad Eggleston: Right.

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Brit’s iPad Pro 15: Typically other. The other comic book stories that are about autism are about their impact on other people or the autistic character. So vision and scarlet, which no 2 other characters in the Avengers had a child who was autistic. And it was, How does that impact the parents? Not, you know, subjectively from the kids point of view. And so it's nice that speak up is part of that movement

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Brit’s iPad Pro 15: where it's saying, like, let's actually hear from people who are autistic, writing about autistic characters and centering them in in a role where you can see their growth and what their experiences are like rather than something from the outside looking in, which is typically how pop culture has addressed autism through most of my lifetime.

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Tad Eggleston: Yeah, it's it's it's

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Tad Eggleston: it's how pop culture is, is has addressed autism. It's for the most part how the world addressed autism until, like the late nineties.

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Brit’s iPad Pro 15: Yeah, so but the parent relationship that you see and speak up is contrasted by the parent relationship in 4 kids where 4 kids. The central

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Brit’s iPad Pro 15: sort of motivator of the whole story is a daughter wanting to protect her father.

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Brit’s iPad Pro 15: A a

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Tad Eggleston: Though I would argue, it's both the daughter wanting to protect her father, and the father wanting to protect the daughter, which is similar to speak up in that

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Tad Eggleston: mia does try to do the things her mom wants her to do. Mia doesn't want to hurt her. Mom mia knows her. Mom loves her. Mia doesn't like to argue with her mom about those things because she knows where they're coming from. They just don't work. And for kids you have that similar lack of communication. Dad wants to protect the daughter from the fact that, yeah, I used to be a bank robber. I do know these guys. I actually owe these guys. They went to prison for me

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Tad Eggleston: right? I've been able to be your father because they went to jail

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Tad Eggleston: and she's like, I can't lose you.

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Tad Eggleston: But what they can't do is manage to actually talk about that. And that's how you wind up with this

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Tad Eggleston: crazy thing that happens instead.

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Brit’s iPad Pro 15: Yeah, that communication disconnect which you see and speak up where you see mia's thoughts versus what she actually says to her mom, which means that the mom doesn't understand what Mia is going through, or at least Mom's not listening, you know, because the mom is so scared for her daughter, and she's sticking with her previous generation's values when she should be, you know, taking more modern approach.

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Tad Eggleston: And.

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Brit’s iPad Pro 15: It's like, Be honest, that and 4.

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Tad Eggleston: That's not entirely.

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Brit’s iPad Pro 15: There are several scenes of the father in in 4 kids. You're seeing that the conversation between the father and the daughter show the miscommunication between those 2 as well. They say I'm being very, very honest to you, and then they both lie, and then they have the next conversation says, you know, when you said that thing you were lying to me, and it's like, I know. But now I'm telling you the truth, which is another lie. And so it's this continued miscommunication. I don't know that it would have solved the problem. You. You get the feeling and speak up that it could have helped.

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Tad Eggleston: They are certain.

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Brit’s iPad Pro 15: I don't know if it would have helped, you know.

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Tad Eggleston: Who knows? Who knows? Again, like like my my.

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Tad Eggleston: just because I find it interesting for conversational

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Tad Eggleston: points. For the most part I haven't thought too hard about my pairings, you know. I put Superman up in the sky with with the long road or the the ride together.

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Tad Eggleston: purely because of the the Freak out issue where he was trying to get a hold of Lois, and imagining all the things that could go wrong.

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Brit’s iPad Pro 15: Great scene that was, yeah.

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Tad Eggleston: Versus right after the the

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Tad Eggleston: the place that David had lived in was shut down because of all of the abuse that had gone on there, you know his sister, thinking of all of the things that could possibly have happened to her brother, not knowing how to even ask him about it because she didn't want to retraumatize him. Blah! Blah! Those were how that got together, just like how this got together was like the ability to use an intermediary, because I've found that like

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Tad Eggleston: I didn't play role-playing games until pretty recently.

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Tad Eggleston: But I found that being able to fall into characters allows me to explore my own thoughts and and my own

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Tad Eggleston: communication styles in a different way.

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Tad Eggleston: and practice things in a safe environment.

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Brit’s iPad Pro 15: Yeah.

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Tad Eggleston: You know sometime.

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Brit’s iPad Pro 15: What if that environment becomes unsafe, like? What ends up happening in speak up, is that environment.

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Tad Eggleston: Absolutely.

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Brit’s iPad Pro 15: Suddenly risking being on.

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Tad Eggleston: I've had that happen, too.

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Tad Eggleston: Yeah.

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Brit’s iPad Pro 15: But that it that environment ends up holding

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Brit’s iPad Pro 15: in in 4 kids. It makes me wonder. I think I already feel like the answer. But I'm at least going to throw the question out. There does the fact that they are having these adventures, and they have explored these other versions of themselves where they're running around killing and having these grand adventures. Does that create a sense of grandiosity in them that leads them to actually try to rob a bank and do things that are amoral at best. They they burn down somebody's house.

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Brit’s iPad Pro 15: you know, and when I'm reading that I I think you're supposed to read that, and think.

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Tad Eggleston: Burned down his hair, and he ran around and set the house on fire.

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Brit’s iPad Pro 15: It's it's a it's a but for I mean they broke into somebody's house, lit it on fire, you know, and it burned it.

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Tad Eggleston: Broke into criminals. House.

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Brit’s iPad Pro 15: Understood. Nonetheless, you know, just because a criminal steal somebody's bike doesn't mean it's right to steal somebody's bike.

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Tad Eggleston: No! Again I think.

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Brit’s iPad Pro 15: Do you feel like that role play? Oh, unlock something for them so that they could have the either bravery or foolhardiness, or whatever? Yeah, I kind of agree with you, too. That's why I said I would ask the question, but I kind of.

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Tad Eggleston: No, I think I think the biggest difference between these books is that Beck's

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Tad Eggleston: was trying to tell a story to get across

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Tad Eggleston: a message, and Matthew and Tyler were

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Tad Eggleston: trying to tell an entertaining story, and any messages were completely incidental.

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Brit’s iPad Pro 15: That's interesting.

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Brit’s iPad Pro 15: you might be right, I mean, I don't know. You've spoken to the guy, right to the to the author. So is, that is that roughly what he was saying, too. He's like I had this grand adventure, and I just want to figure out how to tell it.

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Tad Eggleston: Pretty much.

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Tad Eggleston: I mean I if I recall correctly, it's been a while since we had that conversation, but like it started with somebody saying like.

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Tad Eggleston: What if this? And they just kind of ran with it?

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Tad Eggleston: You know, they used to work at a

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Tad Eggleston: forbidden planet and New York together.

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Brit’s iPad Pro 15: That was my local comic book store. For a while.

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Tad Eggleston: You might have depending on when you went. When was it your local comic shop?

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Brit’s iPad Pro 15: From about 1990.

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Brit’s iPad Pro 15: Well, I've lived in New York from 90, from January 93 up until 20, 16 fall, 2,016

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Brit’s iPad Pro 15: but I I you know I flopped around for a different couple of different ones. But my! My! Among the earliest.

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Brit’s iPad Pro 15: I guess that would have been the mid 9, it would have been 95. Ish, 96, ish, yeah, you know. Give or take a couple of years.

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Brit’s iPad Pro 15: Okay, I think they're a little bit younger than me, so, depending on how long you went, they may or may not have been your clerks.

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Brit’s iPad Pro 15: It still was one of those.

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Tad Eggleston: They started in their teens or early twenties.

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Tad Eggleston: and we're there in like the early to mid 2,000 S.

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Brit’s iPad Pro 15: Oh, I definitely.

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Tad Eggleston: There, until.

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Brit’s iPad Pro 15: Definitely would have bought.

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Tad Eggleston: Did.

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Brit’s iPad Pro 15: Books there.

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Tad Eggleston: Yeah, I think they were actually there until they did. 4 kids walk into a bank.

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Brit’s iPad Pro 15: Oh, wow! That's awesome!

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Tad Eggleston: I think they were there when they were making it.

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Tad Eggleston: because that that's an incredibly common comic book story. We love comics. So we're going to work at a comic shop while we make comics.

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Brit’s iPad Pro 15: God, I I dream of opening a comic book store one day.

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Tad Eggleston: Me too.

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Brit’s iPad Pro 15: I already I know the name, I know the premise every.

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Tad Eggleston: Ha! Ha!

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Tad Eggleston: I know a lot about what goes into it. I don't have a name yet.

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Tad Eggleston: My comic shop would definitely have coffee and pizza.

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Brit’s iPad Pro 15: Oh, pizza is a tricky one, right? Because now greasy fingers are touching your comics.

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Tad Eggleston: Yeah, but but, like my comic shop, would also have a reading area with

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Tad Eggleston: issues that were done up the way the libraries do them with contact paper around the cover.

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Brit’s iPad Pro 15: I love that.

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Tad Eggleston: Want to go, read, go, read that one.

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Brit’s iPad Pro 15: Yep. Right?

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Brit’s iPad Pro 15: Yeah.

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Tad Eggleston: For that matter, I think I would be one of the stores that would just bag and board everything.

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Brit’s iPad Pro 15: Let's see, I I have. My mine is a decidedly grandiose. It's the United States Library of Comics is what I would call the whole thing, and you have to say you have to say the whole title, The United States Library of Comics, and

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Tad Eggleston: One of my favorite stores ever, and it's often just called Comic College. But but it's in Minneapolis, and it's called the College of Comic Book Knowledge.

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Brit’s iPad Pro 15: Nice, nice. Yeah. And so among the things that I want to have, I want to have a roped off area because I wanna, I want it to be the Soho house of comics, basically so that it's got it's got a sort of front area. That's the cafe, you know, reading area. Every table has like the equivalent of a jukebox, except for it's an ipad with a subscription to comixology.

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Brit’s iPad Pro 15: M.

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Tad Eggleston: Nice.

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Brit’s iPad Pro 15: And there's a front area in my mind like the the draw you in part of things where there there's like a front of like a the click, less window, where the usually they would show the the mannequin with the outfit that you want to buy.

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Tad Eggleston: Right.

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Brit’s iPad Pro 15: This would have a a glass box where an artist is drawing.

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Tad Eggleston: Yeah, see? On.

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Brit’s iPad Pro 15: You can see on monitors what they're drawing, and so.

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Tad Eggleston: Want to to have a place for residencies to happen where? Yeah, that that, and because my my wife is an artist like if if we're getting grandiose and and like, I can build my own building to have it work.

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Tad Eggleston: I would have an area for her to teach classes for other people.

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Brit’s iPad Pro 15: Well for me. There's there's an upstairs empty room, and because at night it's a it's a comedy shows. So it's it's a little bit of meltdown, you know, a little bit of a slightly upscale meltdown.

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Tad Eggleston: I get that.

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Brit’s iPad Pro 15: If you're a member you have to like, you have to wear a suit jacket or something, but it can, but it can be like the the PGA, or the or the Hall of Fame.

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Tad Eggleston: Yeah. Yeah. No.

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Brit’s iPad Pro 15: Yellow suit jacket.

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Tad Eggleston: Because I hate suit jackets.

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Brit’s iPad Pro 15: Yeah, hey? I'd have to. I'd have to figure that one out because I I am obviously aware of sensory issues. But the idea that like. I do believe that there's something about dressing up that makes you feel better about yourself.

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Tad Eggleston: Sometimes.

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Brit’s iPad Pro 15: And and so I would want to figure out a way to capture that for the comic book reading.

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Brit’s iPad Pro 15: I mean, I'll give you like. If I have a suit that fits right.

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Tad Eggleston: And fits right to my sensory needs.

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Brit’s iPad Pro 15: Okay.

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Tad Eggleston: Sure I love it. It does feel good.

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Brit’s iPad Pro 15: Yeah, I wouldn't want to wear my.

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Tad Eggleston: Tie's going to be looser than most people would have.

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Brit’s iPad Pro 15: Could never make people wear ties.

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Tad Eggleston: I actually kind of like wearing a tie if I can get wearing it kind of loose

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Tad Eggleston: I've got. I've got a whole bunch of Jerry Garcia ties from from when I had to wear ties, so my ties are flashy.

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Tad Eggleston: but but like but like

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Tad Eggleston: not ostentatiously flashy, I mean I don't know how well you know, Jerry Garcia ties they're like they're not novelty ties, but they're not boring.

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Brit’s iPad Pro 15: Yeah. Yeah. Well, so along the lines of what something, how something looks can make you feel something, you know, whether it's your own clothing or a book that you're reading. There's a distinct difference in the way. Speak up. And for kids

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Brit’s iPad Pro 15: present themselves visually, that I think has an impact that reflects the experience of reading the book, so speak up has loose. It has very thin panel borders

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Brit’s iPad Pro 15: they are inked very finely. Sometimes the panels don't have any borders at all. They the sometimes a. The second panel in a book will rest on top of the 1st sort of panel area so that there's bleed around it where you can see the previous image and it and and there's sometimes they. It bleeds off the page entirely.

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Brit’s iPad Pro 15: and so it has this way of pulling you in visually. That, I think, serves the story extremely well where you're supposed to have a great deal of empathy, and if I was in this kid's shoes, and what it must feel like to be like that

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Brit’s iPad Pro 15: which I think is, you know, useful for storytelling, but also for the reason I think the book is important is that I can imagine a neurotypical kid reading it, and, you know, getting sucked in and saying like, Oh, that's what it must feel like to be that person. I recognize that person in my school.

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Brit’s iPad Pro 15: you know, or there. Oh, there's the kid at school who's a little bit like mia is, and I treat that. I ignore that person. Oh, and this is what it feels like to be ignored by me.

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Brit’s iPad Pro 15: And so the the visual part of pulling that in, whereas there's a

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Brit’s iPad Pro 15: there's a standoffishness relative standoffishness in style for kids. It's got a very every every panel is at a right angle. There is my recollection white between every panel, so that there's there's no bleeding, is my recollection. There are a couple of very like watchman style, 9 panel grids. Which is this specifically like.

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Tad Eggleston: That they're bendis grids. They're like 12, 8.

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Brit’s iPad Pro 15: Yeah. Oh, that's true. Yeah, yeah. But but a rigidity to the structure. Now it's beautiful. The rigidity is not meant to suggest that it's, you know, anyway, displeasing. It's actually beautiful. It's got a lot of crispware to it, you know, a lot of very

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Brit’s iPad Pro 15: almost, Wes Anderson. But but it's got. It's got this very.

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Tad Eggleston: It was the 1st review I read of it before it even came out was, and this is what made me go. I must read this book, Wes Anderson meets reservoir dogs.

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Brit’s iPad Pro 15: Oh, that's fair. Yeah. The reservoir dogs. Part of it, I think, is that the the drawing style reminds me of David Maskelly in in year one in batman year one

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Tad Eggleston: Well and like when they're

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Tad Eggleston: walking down the street in their costumes, it's like the perfect reservoir dogs pose, except for like not having the suits.

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Tad Eggleston: I mean, if I recall correctly.

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Tad Eggleston: and I almost need to go back and listen to the episode like what? What tipped it off. I don't think it was specifically what if Wes Anderson did? I think Wes Anderson was part of it? It was like, what if Wes Anderson made dog day afternoon or something.

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Brit’s iPad Pro 15: Oh, wow! Fun! Yeah. Gosh, that's great! That's a great comparison.

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Brit’s iPad Pro 15: Yeah, and and also there's.

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Tad Eggleston: I mean that that.

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Brit’s iPad Pro 15: Auburns, the the coloring of the book, a lot of auburns, especially in real life, which gives it this Southwestern feel. I don't remember offhand where it was set, but to me it feels like Mexico.

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Tad Eggleston: Specific. It's not specific.

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Brit’s iPad Pro 15: But to me it feels like the American West.

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Brit’s iPad Pro 15: Which kind of gives it this, like western ish bank robbery, you know, in the okay corral. You know that kind of vibe. But the but the the linear, the graphic.

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Brit’s iPad Pro 15: Those words don't really work here. It's very angular, and it feels a little bit keyhole. It feels a little bit standoffish, so that you can enjoy the story without having too much empathy, because, like, when when that guy's house burned down, you know, when we were talking about that, and you're sort of saying, Well, he's a criminal. I'm still thinking of it as a homeowner. Right? Because I'm like, Oh, my God, that's and California fires and all that kind of stuff. And I'm like, Well, this is, and in a way that took me out of the story, and so by and large that.

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Tad Eggleston: Guess the only.

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Brit’s iPad Pro 15: Story, more accessible.

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Tad Eggleston: I guess the only reason

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Tad Eggleston: because I knew that that was a horrible thing. But the only is is specifically that Guy was the one that punched her.

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Brit’s iPad Pro 15: Well, it's part of a running gag, right? So there.

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Tad Eggleston: And the one that had committed 4, or been charged for 4 murders got off on all of them, committed, 3 of them.

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Brit’s iPad Pro 15: So

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Brit’s iPad Pro 15: so there are 4 bank robbers and 4 kids. And they're you know whatever the whole book is about them dancing with each other, and when there's a running gag, where of the 4 adult bank robbers, one of them in a home alone style is always getting.

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Brit’s iPad Pro 15: you know, physically injured by the girl who's leading the kids and so it's a joke. It's funny, and you're not supposed to sit there and think like, oh, he'll never see again. Or Oh, that's 3rd degree, you know, Burns, or whatever you're not, you're not supposed to be thinking about it. You're supposed to be reading it and going like, oh, that's a funny joke he keeps. He's the one who keeps getting hurt. Ha, ha! He's getting his just desserts.

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Brit’s iPad Pro 15: and that distant the style of the book. That keyhole style, rather than the sort of more enveloping style of Speak up, lets you keep a safe distance from it, lets you understand it as like, oh, this is

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Brit’s iPad Pro 15: this is not quite realism.

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Tad Eggleston: See, I'm going to.

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Brit’s iPad Pro 15: Something else.

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Tad Eggleston: And because, as you were talking about this, something, something occurred to me, because I think I think that actually the 2 books

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Tad Eggleston: are in perfect styles for 2 different types of neurodiverse people. My wife is neurodiverse. And like, I'm literally making up these terms as I go, because to a certain extent there aren't strong terms for a lot of this. So I feel like I'd rather make up terms that that are descriptive than try to find like, okay, what pigeonhole do we have?

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Tad Eggleston: My wife tends to be neurodiverse, artistic, and I tend to be very diverse logic.

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Tad Eggleston: I

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Tad Eggleston: am drawn way more by the art style of 4 kids walking the bank. I have an intense empathy

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Tad Eggleston: for the 4 kids.

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Tad Eggleston: I have less of an empathy for the other ones, in part because of. Yes, like you, said the way they they present, but also because they to me represent not just bullies, but the bullies that are willing to kill these kids just because they're in the way and or different.

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Tad Eggleston: And at that point it's not that I don't empathize with him when Burger shoots the Orc into his eye. I go hell, yes.

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Tad Eggleston: and and I, in my mind it's like this is the only way that these kids

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Tad Eggleston: can assert the fact that they're human enough, that they have to think twice before just pushing them out of the way.

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Tad Eggleston: because it's the only language that those 4 guys speak

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Tad Eggleston: is is the way I read it.

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Tad Eggleston: And I know that that's not.

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Brit’s iPad Pro 15: Think that's necessary for the storytelling, though. Right.

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Tad Eggleston: Oh, absolutely absolutely.

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Brit’s iPad Pro 15: That story I really enjoyed. I like both books, obviously. But that's my 1st time reading 4 kids. I think it's a super fun book. I really enjoy it a lot. I think it's terrific, but some of that is because you are able to say I do not have empathy for those 4 bank robbers right now, the more you know about those bank robbers, maybe you have more empathy, but he draws the line. He says, no, you don't need to know that this kid was sexually abused as a child, and that's why he grew up like this, because then you would have more empathy for him.

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Brit’s iPad Pro 15: That's your

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Brit’s iPad Pro 15: his eye. You're like, oh, that's a real shame. Instead, you were able to read the story for what it is which is the story about the girl and her friends and their reaction to the to the world around.

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Tad Eggleston: Got it.

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Tad Eggleston: I actually wind up having empathy for the leader at least

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Tad Eggleston: like, because of something that happens off screen at the end when we find out that

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Tad Eggleston: they robbed a different bank earlier in the day without Dad.

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Tad Eggleston: And I put that all on the leader, because what comes across is he's the only one that's

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Tad Eggleston: actually listening and thinking about.

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Tad Eggleston: Oh, it isn't just that that her dad owes us.

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Tad Eggleston: He's got responsibilities.

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Tad Eggleston: What you know, I mean, you see, a very gradual progression in him from the start to the end

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Tad Eggleston: between, you know, just barging into the house and issue one

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Tad Eggleston: and then robbing a different bank in issue. 5 off screen.

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Brit’s iPad Pro 15: And that's funny. You you gave him a lot more grace than I gave him. I saw him as always, like that. He was a relatively rational actor.

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Brit’s iPad Pro 15: The other ones were, you know, goofballs and idiots, and almost everybody else in the book was really I saw that as a very rational choice? If if so.

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Tad Eggleston: Oh, absolutely!

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Brit’s iPad Pro 15: The whole book is like he's casing out this bank to rob this bank. And these kids are getting involved messing the whole thing up, and at a certain point a rational person would say, You know what these kids are gonna mess up this bank, this co that my covers blown, you know. So

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Brit’s iPad Pro 15: right.

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Brit’s iPad Pro 15: maybe I can use that as a distraction to go rob a different bank and get away scot free.

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Tad Eggleston: I meant a lot of it, though, in leaving Dad out.

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Brit’s iPad Pro 15: Yeah, I I hear what you're saying. I I.

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Tad Eggleston: I don't very well be right.

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Tad Eggleston: 100% rational.

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Brit’s iPad Pro 15: Well, the leaving dad out part was rational. I don't know. I took it. It was a throwaway line in the book, right in the book they were like, oh, we've I don't know. We saved my dad like you didn't save him anything. He was a whole different bank. And then also the girl goes to jail and loses, however, many years of her youth, which I'm sure the dad did not want.

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Tad Eggleston: No, no, yeah, no, I mean burger dies the other.

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Brit’s iPad Pro 15: The other bank robber was like, Get me out of here. This has gone south. It's not worth it. It's probably not worth it for him to kill anybody. He doesn't kill anybody throughout the book. So you know. So he just is like, let's rob a different.

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Tad Eggleston: But he also has to prevent his other guys from killing people.

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Brit’s iPad Pro 15: Yeah, but he's the leader, I mean they. They tend to follow him.

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Tad Eggleston: Know and overall. I agree with you, but but it's another thing that I love about. The book is like.

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Tad Eggleston: if you have the crazy like to pick it apart and figure out things.

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Brit’s iPad Pro 15: Box.

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Tad Eggleston: Mind. There's like so much to continue to pick apart or think about or debate about. I mean this, this is this book was made for me. Every time I read it I see something new, or think of another possibility. I don't think I thought of the empathy for that one guy until we were talking right here.

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Brit’s iPad Pro 15: Yeah.

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Tad Eggleston: I mean I.

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Brit’s iPad Pro 15: Too, like in any Heist book. There are really 2 or 3 different Heist plans going on at the same time. Right? There's the the plan that the bad guys have that apparently includes the father. There's the plan that the kids have to try and rob the bank in to figure out who the bank robbers are, and to then come up with a plan to rob the bank in their stead. There's this other clockwork thing going in the background where they're going to rob this whole other bank

435
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Brit’s iPad Pro 15: so there, there are a lot of moving parts and a lot of fun pieces to play with.

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Tad Eggleston: And I relate so much to Walter Walter's. My guy.

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Brit’s iPad Pro 15: Which one was. He? Is he the scientist.

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Tad Eggleston: Yeah.

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Brit’s iPad Pro 15: He's the little boy, he his dialogue is, is all in a a normal sized word balloon, with very small letters. Right? So you, you.

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Brit’s iPad Pro 15: You perceive that as he's not talking very loud, and you get a sense of who he is and he he's except when he's engaged in his special interest. He's always averting his eyes, and he's not really asserting himself very much. He's the one who was more gender fluid in the video game but square in the outside world. Right? He! He! And he's a valuable member of the team.

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Tad Eggleston: Well, and all.

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Brit’s iPad Pro 15: The most likable character.

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Tad Eggleston: I think I think another reason, I mean, you brought up the very square in the outside world. And and it just made me immediately. Think of

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Tad Eggleston: the last panel.

445
00:53:08.600 --> 00:53:13.650
Tad Eggleston: Where now he's way more hipster.

446
00:53:14.100 --> 00:53:18.699
Tad Eggleston: He's got his fro. He's got his his

447
00:53:23.730 --> 00:53:27.270
Brit’s iPad Pro 15: Well, she is panel the book for I mean I guess this is.

448
00:53:27.270 --> 00:53:33.095
Tad Eggleston: As they're getting. As you know, Paige gets out of prison. She's hugging, hugging

449
00:53:35.560 --> 00:53:41.720
Tad Eggleston: her dad, and like stretches there, and he looks a lot like he. He looked

450
00:53:42.350 --> 00:53:53.090
Tad Eggleston: all the rest of the time, and and Walter is there, and he still looks like a geek. But he he isn't. He's much looser in himself. He's not as

451
00:53:53.980 --> 00:53:58.640
Tad Eggleston: as rigid, you know. The suspenders are gone. They're they're.

452
00:53:58.640 --> 00:54:00.519
Brit’s iPad Pro 15: Yeah. The shirt's not tucked in. Pants are baggy.

453
00:54:00.520 --> 00:54:03.870
Tad Eggleston: Shirt, baggy pants, you know.

454
00:54:04.360 --> 00:54:04.860
Brit’s iPad Pro 15: Cool phone.

455
00:54:04.860 --> 00:54:13.739
Tad Eggleston: Relatively, you know, it's like, Oh, you you found yourself on some level, is is what it feels like when I look at Walter in that picture.

456
00:54:17.680 --> 00:54:19.767
Tad Eggleston: and for that matter,

457
00:54:20.600 --> 00:54:24.320
Tad Eggleston: And I just realized this when

458
00:54:24.610 --> 00:54:29.429
Tad Eggleston: they're getting out of the car, he says

459
00:54:29.860 --> 00:54:33.180
Tad Eggleston: at regular volume, it's going to be fine.

460
00:54:34.470 --> 00:54:36.800
Brit’s iPad Pro 15: Yeah. Good point. I hadn't noticed that. That's great.

461
00:54:37.220 --> 00:54:47.820
Tad Eggleston: Yeah, whereas the only thing he'd done at anything other than the the small small volume

462
00:54:47.990 --> 00:54:50.500
Tad Eggleston: before that, I think, was, when

463
00:54:52.020 --> 00:54:56.700
Tad Eggleston: was it? When Burger got shot he screams one time.

464
00:54:57.750 --> 00:55:01.330
Tad Eggleston: Yeah, he screamed. When Burger got shot.

465
00:55:05.430 --> 00:55:11.350
Brit’s iPad Pro 15: Oh, yeah, another time, when he was able to speak without right, without making his voice small.

466
00:55:11.820 --> 00:55:12.480
Tad Eggleston: Right.

467
00:55:13.250 --> 00:55:15.752
Brit’s iPad Pro 15: Yeah, it's a super fun story. It's

468
00:55:17.750 --> 00:55:19.940
Tad Eggleston: No, it's not, I mean.

469
00:55:21.720 --> 00:55:31.809
Tad Eggleston: for for part of what you would like to see in terms of autism, representation or whatnot, a a line here or there could have given you

470
00:55:32.330 --> 00:55:36.419
Tad Eggleston: explicit autistic representation without changing the story.

471
00:55:36.790 --> 00:55:40.369
Brit’s iPad Pro 15: Yeah, but that's not what I'm looking for, like, I guess I guess I'm not.

472
00:55:40.720 --> 00:55:45.370
Brit’s iPad Pro 15: I'm just trying to encourage people at the creation stage, you know, if that's something they want to do, I don't think it's

473
00:55:45.670 --> 00:55:49.239
Brit’s iPad Pro 15: I'm not quite as interested in retrofitting characters, because I let's.

474
00:55:49.240 --> 00:55:50.090
Tad Eggleston: No, I'm not. I'm not.

475
00:55:50.090 --> 00:55:50.930
Tad Eggleston: They didn't do any

476
00:55:50.930 --> 00:55:56.290
Tad Eggleston: fitting the character. I'm saying. I'm saying, if they had wanted to have an autistic character

477
00:55:57.090 --> 00:56:06.479
Tad Eggleston: in the creation stage. If they'd wanted to have an explicitly autistic character, they wouldn't necessarily have had to change this book at all. I mean, I think that you're still.

478
00:56:07.750 --> 00:56:13.399
Tad Eggleston: I think, 3 or 4 years from now you're gonna start seeing an explosion of autistic characters just.

479
00:56:13.400 --> 00:56:14.440
Brit’s iPad Pro 15: You can have your.

480
00:56:14.440 --> 00:56:31.119
Tad Eggleston: A greater number of creators that grew up under the Dsm-five grew up under the era where being autistic didn't mean that you had to be sent to the special school and forgotten about where being autistic didn't mean.

481
00:56:32.130 --> 00:56:38.850
Tad Eggleston: you know, that explosion in autism that we were talking about before will create more autistic characters.

482
00:56:40.520 --> 00:56:42.919
Brit’s iPad Pro 15: Yeah, I think there, I think we will definitely be seeing more.

483
00:56:42.920 --> 00:56:50.350
Tad Eggleston: And like in the way you have gender fluid characters in drama.

484
00:56:51.070 --> 00:56:58.189
Tad Eggleston: you know. I mean, everybody wants to ban Raina Telgemeyer's drama, because oh, there's the the Trans kid.

485
00:56:59.480 --> 00:57:10.050
Tad Eggleston: like the Trans kid isn't actually part of the story. I mean, the character is, but the fact that they're trans is just a thing. It's not. It's not any part of

486
00:57:10.390 --> 00:57:16.289
Tad Eggleston: it's a thing like they're like. If they were redheaded, or

487
00:57:17.290 --> 00:57:24.809
Tad Eggleston: you know, the the only, the only notice of it. Whatsoever is like. There's 1 point where they remind somebody. Oh, I actually like they.

488
00:57:26.460 --> 00:57:27.179
Tad Eggleston: That's it.

489
00:57:27.410 --> 00:57:34.189
Tad Eggleston: And there are other stories where, where you don't even have that line, you just have the character that's referred to as they?

490
00:57:34.690 --> 00:57:42.219
Tad Eggleston: And it's never discussed at all. I think at some point sooner rather than later, you'll have more characters

491
00:57:42.860 --> 00:57:55.710
Tad Eggleston: where there's 1 line somewhere, or or in an extended series it'll be, you know, the the author always thought of them, and as autistic, and it doesn't come up until that moment where it would naturally come up

492
00:57:55.970 --> 00:58:08.479
Tad Eggleston: where? Where it's like, okay, look, I'm autistic. So let I'm working through how to say this. I mean, that's that's how I tell most people is, is like, I don't walk into the room and go. I'm autistic. I like.

493
00:58:08.620 --> 00:58:14.230
Tad Eggleston: If at some point, being autistic

494
00:58:14.410 --> 00:58:23.699
Tad Eggleston: matters to our communication matters to how they might look at me matters to explain my actions or whatnot, and to say, look, I'm autistic. One of the things that

495
00:58:24.040 --> 00:58:36.809
Tad Eggleston: I have trouble with is, or one of the ways my brain works is, or that's why my hands are moving at my sides. It's not that like I'm bored and want to get out of here. It's that I'm a little over

496
00:58:37.740 --> 00:58:42.980
Tad Eggleston: overstimulated, and I'm you know, whatever.

497
00:58:43.400 --> 00:58:56.199
Brit’s iPad Pro 15: Yeah, I I agree with you. I I think that'll happen. And I I think that, given the current environment, I am, I work in the television. So that's the world that I'll know. But given the current environment, if you're creating an assistant character.

498
00:58:56.320 --> 00:59:04.900
Brit’s iPad Pro 15: you don't feel comfortable as a Creator, I suspect, hopefully to say like, Oh, I've seen rain, man. I know what autism is. I think that

499
00:59:05.070 --> 00:59:12.309
Brit’s iPad Pro 15: because of the sensitivities around autism, and particularly because of the way the autistic community sticks up for itself now in a way that maybe it didn't 25 years ago.

500
00:59:12.510 --> 00:59:23.410
Brit’s iPad Pro 15: If you are a Creator wanting to include an artistic character, you feel compelled to do proper research, you feel compelled to figure out what does that mean? Because if you don't, you might get yelled at. You might get bad.

501
00:59:23.410 --> 00:59:23.870
Tad Eggleston: Thank you.

502
00:59:23.870 --> 00:59:30.699
Brit’s iPad Pro 15: Back on your Instagram page. And as a result, I think you're going to end up getting more authentic representations of autism in.

503
00:59:30.700 --> 00:59:33.989
Tad Eggleston: Way underestimating the number of neurodivergent creators.

504
00:59:35.452 --> 00:59:39.880
Brit’s iPad Pro 15: Perhaps. But- but either way they can't, you know.

505
00:59:39.880 --> 00:59:41.970
Tad Eggleston: Be writing themselves, but but.

506
00:59:41.970 --> 00:59:46.450
Brit’s iPad Pro 15: It might be, but they'll still, you know, I still suspect that they will

507
00:59:46.470 --> 01:00:13.720
Brit’s iPad Pro 15: do a little research. You know. I feel like that's the it feels like prior representations of autism from, you know, a generation ago or 2 feel like they. They learned the word autism. They had one exposure to it, and they said, Oh, now I understand it, and included it in their works without really thinking about broader implications. I think nowadays people are understanding broader implications because of the because of the Internet, and that people who are dissatisfied make their opinions known, and that if you are uncareful

508
01:00:13.950 --> 01:00:18.799
Brit’s iPad Pro 15: or unthoughtful about representations of autism, and you put the word autism in it, especially

509
01:00:19.144 --> 01:00:27.210
Brit’s iPad Pro 15: that you'll get negative feedback. But then the the solution is just. Oh, well, then I will put some thought into it, and that's not that hard, and that might even be fun for a creator.

510
01:00:27.568 --> 01:00:34.019
Tad Eggleston: Though. I mean, that's where and this is. This is a whole different discussion. But that's where the

511
01:00:34.900 --> 01:00:39.830
Tad Eggleston: cure autism crowd and the autism isn't something to be cured. Crowd

512
01:00:42.610 --> 01:00:46.329
Tad Eggleston: have different sets of things that they get upset about.

513
01:00:46.940 --> 01:01:01.300
Brit’s iPad Pro 15: Yeah, absolutely. And it's it's complicated. You know. It's those 2 groups do not have an overlap in their Venn diagram, but they are both important voices in autistic conversations. So if you're a creator looking to include an autistic character in your work, at least know that

514
01:01:01.520 --> 01:01:09.950
Brit’s iPad Pro 15: at least I know that there are these 2 groups there. There is an irreconcilable difference among those 2 groups, at least in the current conception of autism. And

515
01:01:10.060 --> 01:01:11.490
Brit’s iPad Pro 15: and so.

516
01:01:11.640 --> 01:01:24.870
Brit’s iPad Pro 15: if you're going to be creating an autistic character, and you don't know that you might step into a bear trap. But if you do know that you can be thoughtful about your presentation. It doesn't necessarily change anything. You would have done otherwise, but at least check, you know, and and that doesn't take.

517
01:01:24.870 --> 01:01:33.519
Tad Eggleston: But I also wonder how much that is why there are all sorts of characters that we recognize neurodiversity in

518
01:01:33.940 --> 01:01:39.040
Tad Eggleston: that aren't explicitly named, because not explicitly naming them.

519
01:01:39.210 --> 01:01:42.130
Tad Eggleston: is one of the easiest ways to avoid the bear trap.

520
01:01:43.340 --> 01:01:46.459
Brit’s iPad Pro 15: Yeah. But sometimes when you got a hammer, everything looks like a nail.

521
01:01:47.080 --> 01:01:47.710
Tad Eggleston: I get that.

522
01:01:47.710 --> 01:02:09.639
Brit’s iPad Pro 15: And and also sometimes it's a lack of bravery, and sometimes it's a i just need a character who will do X. And so you create that character, and if you haven't explicitly called it autism, then in your book, it may or may not be autism. There's something going on right now with this book called Huck, which I just was able to read the other day. It's a 2016 book by Mark Miller. Comic book, about a superman style. Character, you know.

523
01:02:09.640 --> 01:02:10.279
Brit’s iPad Pro 15: No, I know hot.

524
01:02:10.280 --> 01:02:22.120
Brit’s iPad Pro 15: alternate thing right? And so no, I know you've read it. Yeah. And so in that book he is a character. They kind of refer to him, using a couple of derisive terms, suggesting that he is simple.

525
01:02:22.425 --> 01:02:43.330
Brit’s iPad Pro 15: And that's how you, from having read it. That's kind of really the only way that you know it that he is quote. And there are other words they use that I wouldn't use. And then now they're doing a sequel. It's only a 6 issue comic book, and each issue was kind of thin back then, even beautiful looking book especially. And so now there's going to be a second miniseries featuring the same character.

526
01:02:43.330 --> 01:02:45.770
Tad Eggleston: This time they're explicitly naming him.

527
01:02:46.230 --> 01:02:52.500
Brit’s iPad Pro 15: Well, we don't know yet. We only know that in the solicits they're explicitly calling autistic right? The book hasn't come out yet, so.

528
01:02:52.500 --> 01:02:53.219
Tad Eggleston: No, I know we don't.

529
01:02:53.220 --> 01:02:54.550
Brit’s iPad Pro 15: We don't know whether dietically.

530
01:02:54.550 --> 01:02:57.619
Tad Eggleston: But none of the old solicits said anything about it.

531
01:02:57.750 --> 01:03:03.629
Brit’s iPad Pro 15: No, but there was speculation about it. And having. So I came to the book because I listen to your podcast. And you read

532
01:03:03.630 --> 01:03:07.140
Brit’s iPad Pro 15: well and because I sent you a text when it was announced.

533
01:03:07.750 --> 01:03:12.489
Brit’s iPad Pro 15: Well, I I heard it on your, on your podcast the other day and that's when.

534
01:03:12.490 --> 01:03:12.899
Tad Eggleston: You know.

535
01:03:13.155 --> 01:03:13.920
Brit’s iPad Pro 15: Keyed into it.

536
01:03:13.920 --> 01:03:24.559
Tad Eggleston: That that's fair. I just while I was writing the show notes for that. Podcast and and I came across the the is when I sent you the text.

537
01:03:24.560 --> 01:03:26.850
Brit’s iPad Pro 15: Oh, funny! Well, so.

538
01:03:26.850 --> 01:03:27.930
Tad Eggleston: So I I know.

539
01:03:27.930 --> 01:03:28.880
Brit’s iPad Pro 15: So I then went.

540
01:03:28.880 --> 01:03:31.690
Tad Eggleston: Text before I talked about it on the podcast.

541
01:03:31.690 --> 01:03:35.525
Brit’s iPad Pro 15: Perhaps so. Then I went back and read the book, and it is

542
01:03:36.070 --> 01:03:43.973
Brit’s iPad Pro 15: It's like, I said. It's not the word. Autism doesn't appear in the book. There's a little speculation in the Fan community afterwards, and

543
01:03:44.920 --> 01:03:53.140
Brit’s iPad Pro 15: I I'll be interested to see to what extent the new work incorporates autism into the character, because

544
01:03:53.720 --> 01:04:03.080
Brit’s iPad Pro 15: I don't think it was in their minds when they were creating the character. I don't think they were creating an autistic character and just chose not to use the word autistic. I think they created the character they wanted to create that existed in their minds.

545
01:04:03.080 --> 01:04:12.809
Tad Eggleston: I think I think that. And I'm not even certain that this wasn't something that was talked about at the time I need to like go. I'd have to go look at the press from.

546
01:04:12.930 --> 01:04:15.549
Brit’s iPad Pro 15: From back then, but I remember.

547
01:04:15.990 --> 01:04:17.840
Tad Eggleston: Talking about in the comic shop.

548
01:04:18.040 --> 01:04:24.040
Tad Eggleston: The way it always got described was Forrest. Gump is superman.

549
01:04:24.680 --> 01:04:26.860
Brit’s iPad Pro 15: Oh, okay, that makes sense.

550
01:04:28.700 --> 01:04:30.549
Brit’s iPad Pro 15: Yeah. I mean, that's the way it reads.

551
01:04:30.980 --> 01:04:32.249
Brit’s iPad Pro 15: Ballpark. It reads like that.

552
01:04:32.250 --> 01:04:42.710
Tad Eggleston: And, to be honest, you know, they never actually diagnosed Forrest Gump. So I mean, Forest. Forrest could be a lot of different diagnoses.

553
01:04:45.480 --> 01:04:48.289
Brit’s iPad Pro 15: Which is not uncommon in autism. By the way, is that, like.

554
01:04:48.290 --> 01:04:51.640
Tad Eggleston: It's really not uncommon to have a quote. I mean, that's actually.

555
01:04:51.640 --> 01:04:52.530
Brit’s iPad Pro 15: With autism.

556
01:04:52.530 --> 01:05:00.510
Tad Eggleston: Well, and it's also one of the reasons why the Dsm-five which has the far and away the broadest definition of autism is

557
01:05:00.730 --> 01:05:08.790
Tad Eggleston: so important to me. And a lot of people is that like

558
01:05:10.450 --> 01:05:17.989
Tad Eggleston: what it is is our brains don't work like the 40 to 60% of the people that you would call neurotypical.

559
01:05:18.170 --> 01:05:26.880
Tad Eggleston: After that, you know, finding finding another person whose brain works like yours does is not actually

560
01:05:27.080 --> 01:05:39.830
Tad Eggleston: often something that happens. You'll have these ways that your brain looks like this person and these ways where they work like that person. And sometimes you'll meet other neurodivergent people who

561
01:05:41.490 --> 01:05:46.649
Tad Eggleston: you don't get it all, and they don't get you at all, because you're both neurodivergent. But it's in like

562
01:05:47.250 --> 01:05:53.850
Tad Eggleston: completely different ways. But being inclusive of that

563
01:05:54.070 --> 01:05:57.410
Tad Eggleston: entire group rather than continuing to be

564
01:05:58.140 --> 01:06:07.131
Tad Eggleston: exclusive. Oh, you're not my type of autism, or I'm high functioning, I mean high functioning, low functioning. I hate those terms.

565
01:06:09.870 --> 01:06:18.889
Tad Eggleston: makes it. I mean, if if we're excluding people inside of our community, how on earth do we have less exclusion

566
01:06:19.810 --> 01:06:27.159
Tad Eggleston: outside of our community, you know, but it also makes lobbying really interesting, because, like

567
01:06:28.270 --> 01:06:34.480
Tad Eggleston: what one person needs and what another person needs are often massively different.

568
01:06:38.180 --> 01:06:42.269
Tad Eggleston: And it feels like at least, the neurotypical brain is really.

569
01:06:42.800 --> 01:06:46.600
Tad Eggleston: really built. As I have a hammer. So everything's a nail.

570
01:06:46.730 --> 01:06:53.450
Tad Eggleston: I mean, I recently spent time in the emergency room and and like the biggest frustration to me.

571
01:06:53.700 --> 01:06:59.979
Tad Eggleston: was rather than listening to my symptoms rather than letting me explain what was going on.

572
01:07:00.140 --> 01:07:05.480
Tad Eggleston: I felt like most of the doctors I talked to were trying to guide me

573
01:07:06.510 --> 01:07:09.819
Tad Eggleston: to a Yes or a No on a series of questions

574
01:07:10.140 --> 01:07:14.990
Tad Eggleston: that half the time the questions didn't even feel right.

575
01:07:15.900 --> 01:07:17.220
Tad Eggleston: Which do you.

576
01:07:17.220 --> 01:07:17.840
Brit’s iPad Pro 15: Do you.

577
01:07:17.840 --> 01:07:24.910
Tad Eggleston: Me dive into autism and and medicine, and as it turns out, like we have a lower life expectancy.

578
01:07:25.160 --> 01:07:26.590
Tad Eggleston: in part because of that.

579
01:07:27.430 --> 01:07:31.591
Brit’s iPad Pro 15: You heard the expression. I I wish I could remember exactly how it goes, but when you hear, when you hear

580
01:07:31.990 --> 01:07:35.579
Brit’s iPad Pro 15: when you hear hoofs when you hear hoofs. Don't expect.

581
01:07:35.580 --> 01:07:37.370
Tad Eggleston: Horse. Not a zebra, right.

582
01:07:37.580 --> 01:07:47.030
Tad Eggleston: but but but here I mean I love that expression. But but the way I used it when I was talking to my therapist was. It's the person who's going.

583
01:07:47.310 --> 01:07:52.360
Tad Eggleston: I've decided you're a horse, even though you're sitting in front of me telling me you're a zebra.

584
01:07:54.970 --> 01:08:00.810
Tad Eggleston: if that makes sense, and he had to run somewhere. So so we've got a momentarily pause.

585
01:08:01.740 --> 01:08:02.200
Brit’s iPad Pro 15: My.

586
01:08:02.200 --> 01:08:04.250
Tad Eggleston: There he is again an alarm went off. And I just

587
01:08:04.250 --> 01:08:06.880
Tad Eggleston: that's okay. But yeah, no, I mean.

588
01:08:06.880 --> 01:08:21.740
Brit’s iPad Pro 15: I know that I know the turn of phrase from the context. My wife has an ultra rare genetic disorder, and so she's a zebra, and so she has gone to many, many doctors over the years who were like, oh, it's this more common thing. It's that more common thing

589
01:08:21.870 --> 01:08:24.180
Brit’s iPad Pro 15: when in fact, she was.

590
01:08:24.790 --> 01:08:26.160
Tad Eggleston: Right? Right?

591
01:08:28.240 --> 01:08:29.620
Tad Eggleston: So so yeah.

592
01:08:29.790 --> 01:08:34.700
Tad Eggleston: But but again, it's it's frustrating. When you've already figured out that you're a zebra.

593
01:08:34.970 --> 01:08:37.860
Tad Eggleston: and you're telling the doctor, that you're a zebra.

594
01:08:38.109 --> 01:08:41.049
Tad Eggleston: and they're still trying to treat you like a horse.

595
01:08:43.791 --> 01:08:46.039
Brit’s iPad Pro 15: What was your favorite part of both books?

596
01:08:47.178 --> 01:08:51.510
Tad Eggleston: I mean my favorite part of speak up

597
01:08:54.830 --> 01:08:58.129
Tad Eggleston: is, I think, the end. When Mom finally starts to get it.

598
01:08:58.479 --> 01:09:18.689
Brit’s iPad Pro 15: Yeah, I really, as the autism parent I identified with the mom as well, which is not the point of the book. The point of the book is, or a point of the book is to help you better understand the kid and the kids adventure. And then, of course, the drama of the book is the kid and the kids. Subjective experience of the world when faced with.

599
01:09:18.689 --> 01:09:19.079
Tad Eggleston: Right thing.

600
01:09:19.080 --> 01:09:22.380
Brit’s iPad Pro 15: She really wants. And this thing she really doesn't want, and they are the same thing.

601
01:09:22.720 --> 01:09:27.369
Brit’s iPad Pro 15: But I really appreciated the scene in the car with the mom.

602
01:09:27.890 --> 01:09:35.020
Tad Eggleston: Well, and and for me I think it was the the reverse, as the autistic kid.

603
01:09:36.440 --> 01:09:45.250
Tad Eggleston: Seeing that representation that, like I'm starting to get a little bit with one of my parents.

604
01:09:49.240 --> 01:09:57.340
Tad Eggleston: You know, seeing that that, like somebody can even like write fiction where? Where that understanding

605
01:09:59.300 --> 01:10:01.839
Tad Eggleston: started to dawn that young.

606
01:10:03.470 --> 01:10:10.450
Tad Eggleston: Just it. It makes me happy for the motion that's happened in the world.

607
01:10:10.450 --> 01:10:10.790
Brit’s iPad Pro 15: Yeah.

608
01:10:10.790 --> 01:10:11.920
Tad Eggleston: I was that age.

609
01:10:12.130 --> 01:10:15.190
Brit’s iPad Pro 15: Absolutely. Yeah, I feel the same way. And how about for 4 kids?

610
01:10:15.910 --> 01:10:26.890
Tad Eggleston: For 4 kids. I mean my favorite scene just because I love it is the trampoline scene, the.

611
01:10:27.110 --> 01:10:28.419
Brit’s iPad Pro 15: What was the trampoline scene?

612
01:10:28.620 --> 01:10:35.739
Tad Eggleston: The the one where she's going to apologize. Because, yeah, I understand that

613
01:10:36.150 --> 01:10:40.840
Tad Eggleston: that it's getting too dangerous. And and

614
01:10:42.170 --> 01:11:07.129
Tad Eggleston: I'm sorry. But it's my dad. I'm scared, and you're my friends, and I don't know who else to go to, and like the the 1st 2 pages, while all that's going on. You're seeing the 3 guys just going up and down. Sometimes you'll see their feet, sometimes you'll see the head, sometimes you'll see the torso. They're never in line with each other, and then the last page you get the aerial shot of the of the trampoline and and

615
01:11:07.230 --> 01:11:21.329
Tad Eggleston: burger and and stretch have stopped. And they're like, Yeah, you know, there's there's there's reunion type thing, as as Walter, who's also saying I'm in is also throwing up off the side of the tram.

616
01:11:23.550 --> 01:11:30.260
Tad Eggleston: Just that I just like the creativity that went into deciding those shots is just.

617
01:11:30.440 --> 01:11:34.110
Tad Eggleston: And that's really, I mean, we did an entire podcast on this book

618
01:11:34.590 --> 01:11:39.700
Tad Eggleston: episode 5 of of 22 panels. We broke down this book.

619
01:11:40.037 --> 01:11:42.059
Tad Eggleston: Oh, excuse me, sorry! And like

620
01:11:42.060 --> 01:11:47.789
Tad Eggleston: extensively broke down this book. It's 1 of the most detailed show notes I've ever written.

621
01:11:49.720 --> 01:11:58.880
Tad Eggleston: I put together the 22 panels of 4 kids walk into a bank. I have a graphic with all 22 panels as used in 4 kids. Walk into a bank.

622
01:11:58.880 --> 01:11:59.200
Brit’s iPad Pro 15: Oh, wow!

623
01:12:01.800 --> 01:12:03.889
Tad Eggleston: You know this this book.

624
01:12:04.010 --> 01:12:10.949
Tad Eggleston: It's hard for me to just say a favorite part, because this this book is like high on my list of of favorite

625
01:12:11.230 --> 01:12:12.180
Tad Eggleston: books.

626
01:12:15.170 --> 01:12:17.217
Brit’s iPad Pro 15: Mine. I think that the the one

627
01:12:17.810 --> 01:12:29.036
Brit’s iPad Pro 15: there was a I'm reading the book, and I'm I'm reading because it's an assignment right and and I'm enjoying it looks nice like, I'm thinking, oh, what am I gonna say? And oh, I recognize this kind of aspect to it. And then I got to

628
01:12:29.570 --> 01:12:32.150
Brit’s iPad Pro 15: a scene where you see an overhead shot

629
01:12:32.300 --> 01:12:54.220
Brit’s iPad Pro 15: that is like almost like a like a floor plan shot a very Chris Ware kind of shot overhead, of the father and the daughter, and the father's tucking the daughter in. Yeah, I love that. And you can. Yeah, that was the shot where you can see the the geometry of the the tiling of the bathroom floor that's overhead, and it it it was a very elegant like. I thought it was very pretty shot.

630
01:12:54.220 --> 01:12:56.180
Tad Eggleston: Incredibly sparse room.

631
01:12:56.590 --> 01:13:09.449
Brit’s iPad Pro 15: You see how sparse the room is. You see, the size of the bathroom it gives you. It gives you so much information about their lives. And it's just, you know, in part, because it's an unusual angle. And and that was one of the things that I wrote.

632
01:13:09.450 --> 01:13:10.770
Tad Eggleston: About in the show notes.

633
01:13:10.770 --> 01:13:12.079
Brit’s iPad Pro 15: I'm gonna like this book.

634
01:13:12.950 --> 01:13:25.480
Tad Eggleston: Yeah, yeah, no. I mean, I feel like this book shows a a level of the

635
01:13:27.790 --> 01:13:38.559
Tad Eggleston: structural comics knowledge. That's just unreal. Because you're right. They're influenced by Chris Ware. They're influenced by David Masticelli, by Frank Miller, by

636
01:13:39.410 --> 01:13:44.819
Tad Eggleston: Yeah, Dave Gibbons, right? Yeah. You can see so much

637
01:13:45.160 --> 01:13:53.750
Tad Eggleston: knowledge and love of comics, and and this time was actually the 1st time that I noticed that, like literally, every time a name is given

638
01:13:54.310 --> 01:13:56.730
Tad Eggleston: street name, whatever.

639
01:13:58.650 --> 01:14:00.440
Tad Eggleston: It's a comic legend.

640
01:14:02.706 --> 01:14:05.570
Tad Eggleston: Oh, yeah, that's funny.

641
01:14:05.570 --> 01:14:11.799
Tad Eggleston: I mean, Batman famously has all the street names, you know, are named after, you know O'neill Drive, or

642
01:14:11.800 --> 01:14:13.579
Tad Eggleston: yeah. And Robinson. Yeah.

643
01:14:13.580 --> 01:14:20.740
Tad Eggleston: whatever right? This did that, but like to the nth degree, and sometimes with really obscure ones. But but like.

644
01:14:20.960 --> 01:14:23.149
Tad Eggleston: I just yeah, yeah.

645
01:14:23.150 --> 01:14:24.810
Brit’s iPad Pro 15: And the the lettering, too. I wonder.

646
01:14:24.810 --> 01:14:27.900
Tad Eggleston: This is also a love letter to comics on top of everything else.

647
01:14:27.900 --> 01:14:39.339
Brit’s iPad Pro 15: Yeah, it feels like it. The lettering reminds me of Bendis. Actually, I was trying to remember who who were among the 1st comic book letterers who didn't use all caps in my in my reading lifetime, I'm sure, in the Golden Age.

648
01:14:39.340 --> 01:14:40.299
Brit’s iPad Pro 15: also experimenting

649
01:14:40.300 --> 01:14:58.760
Brit’s iPad Pro 15: stuff. But for most of my lifetime the 1st half of my life. Comic books were all caps, and then there came a point I feel like around when Bendis was breaking into mainstream comics where you would see traditional capitalized sentences, but otherwise, you know, normally written letters which gave it a different feel.

650
01:15:00.170 --> 01:15:00.780
Tad Eggleston: Right.

651
01:15:02.480 --> 01:15:14.490
Tad Eggleston: I just realized that they they give second billing to the letterer on the on the cover.

652
01:15:15.040 --> 01:15:16.090
Brit’s iPad Pro 15: That's interesting.

653
01:15:16.090 --> 01:15:32.780
Tad Eggleston: Because art and design, Tyler, Boss Flatting, Claire Desudi, lettering, Thomas Mauer, Wallpaper Design, Courtney Menard, and writing Matthew Rosenberg, and on the front cover of the book. It's boss and Mauer and Rosenberg.

654
01:15:34.000 --> 01:15:35.520
Brit’s iPad Pro 15: Hmm, interesting.

655
01:15:35.900 --> 01:15:39.340
Tad Eggleston: Yeah, I mean, that could just be alphabetical.

656
01:15:40.800 --> 01:15:47.269
Tad Eggleston: because, like in the opening credit here, it's it's a a boss and Rosenberg comic book with Thomas Maurer.

657
01:15:47.560 --> 01:15:54.119
Tad Eggleston: but, like they, they, they acknowledge the importance of their letter right from the get-go.

658
01:15:55.190 --> 01:16:00.040
Brit’s iPad Pro 15: I mean, even if it is alphabetical, it still shows, you know

659
01:16:00.470 --> 01:16:05.019
Brit’s iPad Pro 15: I don't know collegiality and a respect for each other, and each each contribution that they have to the work.

660
01:16:05.020 --> 01:16:21.590
Tad Eggleston: Yeah. Well, yeah, and you're right. The lettering is, I mean, between the different sizes, between the not all caps, the the boxes to to give stats. The the special effects

661
01:16:21.930 --> 01:16:23.959
Tad Eggleston: are outstanding.

662
01:16:24.260 --> 01:16:26.319
Brit’s iPad Pro 15: Did you read this in paper or digital.

663
01:16:28.580 --> 01:16:30.120
Tad Eggleston: All of the above.

664
01:16:30.290 --> 01:16:41.329
Brit’s iPad Pro 15: Hmm! It's a different. So I read it. I read it on, on digital, on comixology, which I guess is now just Amazon. And it has the guided view which is the essentially slide.

665
01:16:41.330 --> 01:16:41.920
Tad Eggleston: That way, too.

666
01:16:41.920 --> 01:16:57.459
Brit’s iPad Pro 15: A panel. So that's the way I read it, and you just get a very different, and now I'm kind of flicking through it. Seeing, looking at the whole pages. Actually, I was doing that before the before the call, but seeing the whole page and the layout of the page, and the design of the page is also just wonderful. It's.

667
01:16:57.460 --> 01:17:01.800
Tad Eggleston: Oh, yeah, the design is, is is ridiculous.

668
01:17:02.080 --> 01:17:04.819
Brit’s iPad Pro 15: Yeah, it's a beautiful book.

669
01:17:04.970 --> 01:17:11.859
Tad Eggleston: I will continue talking about this book forever and and like almost every time I come across somebody who

670
01:17:12.220 --> 01:17:24.879
Tad Eggleston: has also read it already, we immediately. I mean, we wound up talking about it for like 25 min yesterday with Dwayne, I wound up talking with Dwayne Murray for like 25 min yesterday, because

671
01:17:25.130 --> 01:17:31.110
Tad Eggleston: it was one of the books that that, like his, his act, his his background is in

672
01:17:31.250 --> 01:17:34.580
Tad Eggleston: acting and producing and directing small films.

673
01:17:35.090 --> 01:17:43.420
Tad Eggleston: and he's really only gotten into comics in the last few years because he got tired of all of the he still acts for the most part to make a living.

674
01:17:45.020 --> 01:17:50.650
Tad Eggleston: But he got tired of everything it takes to manage to make even a $70,000 film.

675
01:17:51.210 --> 01:17:56.660
Tad Eggleston: And like, Oh, I can tell stories in this way, and I've always loved comics.

676
01:17:56.660 --> 01:17:57.859
Brit’s iPad Pro 15: Yeah, I could see that.

677
01:17:57.860 --> 01:18:03.320
Tad Eggleston: This was one of the ones that really made him like Go. Oh.

678
01:18:05.698 --> 01:18:07.070
Brit’s iPad Pro 15: You may already know this, but

679
01:18:07.350 --> 01:18:09.980
Brit’s iPad Pro 15: roughly, what year do you think this is set.

680
01:18:11.950 --> 01:18:16.499
Tad Eggleston: I feel like it's actually late seventies.

681
01:18:18.810 --> 01:18:20.813
Tad Eggleston: And there's a specific reason for that.

682
01:18:22.380 --> 01:18:24.180
Brit’s iPad Pro 15: It does feel like that. By the way, I agree.

683
01:18:24.390 --> 01:18:25.180
Tad Eggleston: Yeah.

684
01:18:25.970 --> 01:18:27.599
Brit’s iPad Pro 15: I don't think that's going to be the answer.

685
01:18:27.950 --> 01:18:28.610
Tad Eggleston: But no.

686
01:18:28.610 --> 01:18:34.789
Tad Eggleston: no, I think it is going to be the answer. No, you're right, it's not the answer. The answer is 1973.

687
01:18:35.690 --> 01:18:40.050
Brit’s iPad Pro 15: 73 is when this is set, or that's what's the move.

688
01:18:40.050 --> 01:18:40.790
Brit’s iPad Pro 15: Think it's it.

689
01:18:40.790 --> 01:18:43.089
Tad Eggleston: No. What's the movie on the marquee?

690
01:18:44.929 --> 01:18:48.419
Brit’s iPad Pro 15: I don't know, but I imagine it's a it's a movie from that era.

691
01:18:48.860 --> 01:18:50.459
Tad Eggleston: Friends of Eddie Coyle.

692
01:18:51.110 --> 01:18:56.570
Brit’s iPad Pro 15: So there is like a computer that looks specifically like an A mid nineties computer. To me.

693
01:18:56.940 --> 01:19:03.660
Tad Eggleston: Right? I think that that yeah, I mean, I agree. It feels like.

694
01:19:03.660 --> 01:19:05.439
Brit’s iPad Pro 15: Like what you're talking about. It feels like.

695
01:19:05.440 --> 01:19:14.270
Tad Eggleston: The the computer, the computer in the the police department makes it feel more early to mid nineties.

696
01:19:16.060 --> 01:19:19.720
Brit’s iPad Pro 15: Well, but that's just a piece of evidence, right? I mean, it's got a mouse like we, you know. We knew in.

697
01:19:19.720 --> 01:19:30.309
Tad Eggleston: Well, and and I know I know from talking about his, his newest book, that that, or the one that's coming out next. Matthew sometimes very deliberately tries to have the feel from one era.

698
01:19:30.310 --> 01:19:31.230
Brit’s iPad Pro 15: Yeah.

699
01:19:31.230 --> 01:19:35.450
Tad Eggleston: Also have it. Be not explicitly that era.

700
01:19:36.030 --> 01:19:46.995
Brit’s iPad Pro 15: Yes, and and it definitely has that feel like it. It's it's clearly Pre cell phone. Oh, here's a floppy disk, one of those square ones, the 3 and a half inch, you know, solid ones, not the not the liter literal floppies.

701
01:19:47.420 --> 01:19:52.690
Brit’s iPad Pro 15: but yeah, I don't know. I was just kind of kicking that around of like, but because it is kind of timeless.

702
01:19:52.690 --> 01:20:03.589
Tad Eggleston: I did notice. You know, it's 1 of the things that stuck out to me just because it's a great crime movie and a great crime book when they walk past the movie marquee.

703
01:20:04.060 --> 01:20:08.659
Tad Eggleston: What's playing is the friends of Eddie Coyle which came out in 1973.

704
01:20:10.590 --> 01:20:11.440
Tad Eggleston: So.

705
01:20:14.290 --> 01:20:16.509
Brit’s iPad Pro 15: Oh, and the style of video game they're playing, too.

706
01:20:16.900 --> 01:20:19.619
Tad Eggleston: It's definitely feels more. Eighties. Ish.

707
01:20:19.620 --> 01:20:21.820
Brit’s iPad Pro 15: Late eighties. Yeah, I mean, it's yeah. I would.

708
01:20:21.820 --> 01:20:22.459
Tad Eggleston: Yeah. No.

709
01:20:22.460 --> 01:20:23.110
Tad Eggleston: 1990.

710
01:20:23.110 --> 01:20:28.980
Tad Eggleston: When I start thinking about all of the different things, there are aspects that that

711
01:20:29.360 --> 01:20:34.930
Tad Eggleston: can go. All I mean, the cars feel more late seventies than early seventies. They don't have that sixties feel

712
01:20:36.790 --> 01:20:41.859
Tad Eggleston: The clothing feels almost timeless, but but

713
01:20:42.020 --> 01:20:46.059
Tad Eggleston: but really kind of fits in to the fifties to seventies.

714
01:20:46.720 --> 01:20:47.920
Tad Eggleston: Best.

715
01:20:49.061 --> 01:20:54.590
Tad Eggleston: The computer. Early nineties, the the the video games.

716
01:20:55.590 --> 01:20:58.440
Tad Eggleston: Late, 80 s to early nineties.

717
01:21:01.350 --> 01:21:02.130
Tad Eggleston: Yeah.

718
01:21:02.130 --> 01:21:05.650
Brit’s iPad Pro 15: Yeah. And she's got a computer at home. Oh, actually, no, it's not the.

719
01:21:05.650 --> 01:21:07.000
Tad Eggleston: Td radio.

720
01:21:07.000 --> 01:21:27.159
Brit’s iPad Pro 15: At her friend's home, so complete, unknown, which I have not yet seen, I heard an interview with the production design. Oh, no! People talking about the production design of the movie making the point that even if you set a movie in 1964, that doesn't mean that every car that you'll see drive by is a 1964 model of that car, right? That.

721
01:21:27.160 --> 01:21:30.800
Tad Eggleston: Theoretically, it should be earlier, right? Right?

722
01:21:30.800 --> 01:21:41.350
Brit’s iPad Pro 15: So you'll see so similarly here, just because we're seeing, you know, an older movie in your in that case, or older clothing, or whatever doesn't necessarily mean that it was, you know, in those years.

723
01:21:42.550 --> 01:21:43.349
Brit’s iPad Pro 15: But I mean.

724
01:21:43.350 --> 01:21:49.219
Tad Eggleston: Theoretically, technically, you should take, I mean, if you don't have an explicit date, you should take the newest item.

725
01:21:49.520 --> 01:21:55.210
Brit’s iPad Pro 15: Yeah, I was just thinking the same thing. Whatever the newest thing is that sets the date at the latest. At least it can possibly be.

726
01:21:55.720 --> 01:21:56.340
Tad Eggleston: Right.

727
01:21:57.030 --> 01:21:58.969
Brit’s iPad Pro 15: But plastic delegates.

728
01:21:59.370 --> 01:22:04.199
Tad Eggleston: I don't know that I think they they deliberately.

729
01:22:05.360 --> 01:22:14.790
Tad Eggleston: I know, from from talking to them. I know from from their work on other stuff that that sometimes they very deliberately

730
01:22:16.540 --> 01:22:21.609
Tad Eggleston: make it not quite of any given time. Yeah.

731
01:22:21.610 --> 01:22:22.140
Brit’s iPad Pro 15: It has.

732
01:22:22.140 --> 01:22:24.199
Tad Eggleston: As a way to make it timeless.

733
01:22:24.410 --> 01:22:43.613
Brit’s iPad Pro 15: It. It feels it feels like a, you know, 3 days of the condor. You know those kind of early 19 seventies movies. I wish I could remember the name of that new realists, or something like that. I forgot that movement was called oh, friends of Eddie Coil, I just I'm flicking through it now. And I just got to that page. So it definitely has that sort of gritty feel, and it also

734
01:22:44.010 --> 01:22:52.170
Brit’s iPad Pro 15: it. It suggests the the socioeconomic strata that they're a part of based on, you know, if they if they have an old car, if they have a

735
01:22:52.410 --> 01:23:03.320
Brit’s iPad Pro 15: if they have, you know an old computer. It also tells, even if you are thinking that it's more recent than it actually is, it lets you feel like, Oh, okay, these guys can't afford to have the newest computer.

736
01:23:04.030 --> 01:23:19.390
Brit’s iPad Pro 15: you know. It gives you that kind of a sense. Oh, my goodness, I just got to a page a a 9 panel grid page. This is page looks like page 1, 28, although not not positive. You'll you'll have the same number. It's a 9 panel grid, and the 1st

737
01:23:19.860 --> 01:23:27.360
Brit’s iPad Pro 15: panel is the close up on a yellow clock. It looks like watchmen. It looks like.

738
01:23:27.360 --> 01:23:35.009
Tad Eggleston: Yep, my favorite 9 panel grid, though, is the the the ride home

739
01:23:35.450 --> 01:23:42.349
Tad Eggleston: where they're all crammed in the car. Yeah, and and where Walt Walter gets sick at the end.

740
01:23:42.590 --> 01:23:43.220
Brit’s iPad Pro 15: Yeah.

741
01:23:43.490 --> 01:23:48.894
Brit’s iPad Pro 15: I just went by a very Bandis panel that was very conversational. Well, anyway, thank you for introducing me to this book. And

742
01:23:49.130 --> 01:23:49.850
Tad Eggleston: Absolutely.

743
01:23:49.850 --> 01:23:52.520
Brit’s iPad Pro 15: It was fun to pair them up. Had you read? Speak up before.

744
01:23:53.250 --> 01:24:02.259
Tad Eggleston: No! I finally read it, for my wife had read it, and told me that I needed to read it. I heard about it from your cabinet or no, not.

745
01:24:02.260 --> 01:24:03.489
Brit’s iPad Pro 15: Oh, yeah, no. When you saw my.

746
01:24:03.490 --> 01:24:07.470
Tad Eggleston: I heard about it from your presentation. Yeah, I bought it that day.

747
01:24:07.470 --> 01:24:07.840
Brit’s iPad Pro 15: Comic.

748
01:24:07.840 --> 01:24:09.300
Tad Eggleston: And I like.

749
01:24:09.970 --> 01:24:16.140
Tad Eggleston: yeah, one of the reasons we picked it out of your cabinet is like, I still need to read that. Let's make me read that.

750
01:24:16.420 --> 01:24:17.820
Brit’s iPad Pro 15: Yeah, yeah.

751
01:24:18.420 --> 01:24:19.120
Tad Eggleston: Zone.

752
01:24:19.120 --> 01:24:24.160
Brit’s iPad Pro 15: Well, thank you. I'm glad we got to do this. I appreciate you bringing me along for these things.

753
01:24:24.160 --> 01:24:36.830
Tad Eggleston: And I won't take us out because we're going to now append the Cabinet previously recorded. So I'll say, Hey, Britt, we're going back in time now, and I'll stop this recording.

754
01:24:36.830 --> 01:24:37.440
Brit’s iPad Pro 15: Okay.

WEBVTT

1
00:00:02.530 --> 00:00:10.050
Tad Eggleston: All right, we're doing this out of order. So so those those listening just heard Britt and I talk about

2
00:00:10.060 --> 00:00:33.600
Tad Eggleston: speak up. And 4 kids walk into a bank. But now we got to pick our next Brits cabinet book, and we discovered the last time that we get so into talking about the books that we run out of time before we manage to pick a book. So we decided to do the picking a book session separate this time. Britt hasn't even read 4 kids walk into a bank yet. So all of those things that he says

3
00:00:33.600 --> 00:00:41.990
Tad Eggleston: amazing about that amazing book he hasn't even considered yet when we're picking whatever book we pick right here, and Eddie's saying, Hello.

4
00:00:42.430 --> 00:00:42.770
Britton Payne: Hello!

5
00:00:42.770 --> 00:00:44.400
Tad Eggleston: How's it going, Brett.

6
00:00:44.400 --> 00:00:46.259
Britton Payne: It's going very well, Ted, how are you doing.

7
00:00:46.260 --> 00:00:49.260
Tad Eggleston: I'm doing. Okay. I had a weird week.

8
00:00:49.260 --> 00:00:59.470
Britton Payne: Yeah, we all. It's been a busy January for us. So I'm I'm glad today is like our February is shaping up to be decidedly less busy, and, at least less

9
00:00:59.730 --> 00:01:03.749
Britton Payne: traumatically transitional, so that open the door to the.

10
00:01:03.750 --> 00:01:09.939
Tad Eggleston: That was the good piece of news this morning. Apparently fires are all under control at this moment.

11
00:01:10.280 --> 00:01:11.139
Britton Payne: Good, good, good.

12
00:01:11.410 --> 00:01:14.856
Tad Eggleston: I mean, who knows? By the time this this

13
00:01:15.550 --> 00:01:29.449
Britton Payne: Now the weird things have shifted to other parts of the country. The weird fire related things. Anyway. Here we go. Last time we looked into my cabinet. We picked out a couple of books, Ojo, and I'm not starfire, and so as I.

14
00:01:29.450 --> 00:01:41.299
Tad Eggleston: Out, I mean, speak up! Was picked out of your cabinet, too, just we didn't actually come to the Cabinet for at that time, but, for that matter, the the road together

15
00:01:41.890 --> 00:01:42.380
Tad Eggleston: was that.

16
00:01:42.380 --> 00:01:42.909
Britton Payne: And cavity too.

17
00:01:42.910 --> 00:01:44.030
Tad Eggleston: Cabinet, too. Yeah. Yeah.

18
00:01:44.030 --> 00:01:44.940
Britton Payne: Yeah.

19
00:01:44.940 --> 00:01:54.940
Tad Eggleston: So I mean, that's the name of the podcast. Is your Cabinet. So whether you actually manage to go to your Cabinet, they don't see you at the Cabinet. We get to pretend that you were at the Cabinet.

20
00:01:54.940 --> 00:01:59.629
Britton Payne: I hear you, but I I appreciate a certain integrity. So I'm I've literally you can see that I.

21
00:01:59.630 --> 00:02:03.320
Tad Eggleston: Yes, I can see he is literally at his cabinet.

22
00:02:03.320 --> 00:02:15.309
Britton Payne: I'm looking at the spot on the shelf. I am cheating in a certain way. The cabinet is usually meant for books that I know and love. I have to throw 3 books up there that I have not read yet. I bought them on a recommendation at the

23
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Britton Payne: I love it at the what's what's what are the awards, the Ignats, the Eisners? What are the ones

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Britton Payne: I see.

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Britton Payne: Rv. Award.

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Tad Eggleston: Are those the Harveys? Yeah.

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Britton Payne: Well, there were 3 books that were recommended. I bought them, and I am not. I have to read them before I give them to my daughter. So they are up there anticipating to give them to my daughter. But on the theme of the episode, why things get put in Fritz cabinets because I love them. And this next batch is every just about every Chris Ware book that I have. So Chris Ware is one of your guys, right, not your personal guy, but he's a Chicago guy, right?

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Tad Eggleston: Yes.

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Britton Payne: So 1st let me just rattle. You can slow slow me down at any point but the I tried to get. I like the original books generally in my collection. I don't care for trade paperbacks or collections. I like the I like the form in which they were 1st published broadly. So I have Jimmy Corrigan, smartest kid on earth.

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Tad Eggleston: Wow!

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Britton Payne: Which is acme novelty. Sometimes these are numbered.

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Tad Eggleston: Yeah.

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Britton Payne: This looks like it might be number 4.

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Tad Eggleston: I think he had like 18 acme. Now.

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Britton Payne: Think you're right? Yeah.

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Tad Eggleston: Nice.

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Britton Payne: And this is Jimmy Corrigan, smartest kid on Earth. It's a different issue.

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Tad Eggleston: Yeah.

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Britton Payne: These things are so beautifully designed, I mean.

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Tad Eggleston: Well and see right, there would be the hardest part of me picking a Chris Ware is, I don't have the originals, and can't necessarily afford them.

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Britton Payne: Yeah, they they're not digitally available. They are. Each individual book is beautifully crafted.

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Tad Eggleston: I might have digital copies of most of the originals. But you're right. They're not technically digitally available.

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Britton Payne: Yeah, and understandably so. I mean, he put so much care into the physical crafting.

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Britton Payne: Oh, yeah, no, no, no.

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Britton Payne: if you're listening, and you don't know if you're listening, and you don't know who Chris Ware is. He is a Chicago artist. His works look a lot like graphic design. He's got a very meticulous style. And it is decidedly comics, but it is very much like the comics that seem like they were born of Scott Mcleod. Understanding comics

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Britton Payne: they are.

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Britton Payne: They're very sad, they do, they do, but it seems like it comes out from that like he seems like he's studied, you know. They just studied cartooning, and the the.

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Tad Eggleston: Presentations.

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Britton Payne: Presentations feel like a hundred year old World's Fair kind of design.

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Tad Eggleston: There were actually dual exhibits in Chicago, thinking

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Tad Eggleston: 2021, or early 2022

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Tad Eggleston: about comics in Chicago, the the

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Tad Eggleston: the museum of contemporary art, had comics in Chicago from like 1950 onwards, including a whole where a whole room

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Tad Eggleston: devoted to Chris Ware, with like he makes life, size, model or not life size, but he makes models of a lot of the stuff that he uses.

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Tad Eggleston: models that look like his drawings. So I mean, they're.

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Britton Payne: Yeah.

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Tad Eggleston: Yep.

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Britton Payne: Imagine it's sort of like I think of.

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Tad Eggleston: It was really cool. But but then the the 1890, something to 1940 at the cultural center.

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Tad Eggleston: Chris Ware actually was the curator.

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Britton Payne: Oh, that doesn't surprise me!

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Tad Eggleston: So he put together. Yeah, he's called the comic historian.

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Britton Payne: Yeah. And he's been an editor of compilations of comic books and things like that. But his individual works. 1st of all, they're beautiful. They are like, I said earlier, meticulously drawn, but they're also hand drawn. They look kind of like they were. They're so precise they look like they were probably done by a computer, apparently.

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Tad Eggleston: He does not use a computer.

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Britton Payne: Computer to me.

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Tad Eggleston: One day. We're going to have to do, Chris Ware, but it's probably not going to be a bridge cabinet. It's probably going to be a bigger

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Tad Eggleston: roundtable, because this is my confession about Chris Ware that I've made a few times.

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Tad Eggleston: first, st I haven't come anywhere near reading all of his stuff. But second I appreciate his stuff, and

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Tad Eggleston: I have this like

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Tad Eggleston: itch at the back of my head that says you're missing something, and when it clicks in. You're gonna love this stuff.

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Tad Eggleston: But I'm still missing whatever it is that makes it click in to me. That's.

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Britton Payne: Perfectly understandable. It's a very cold.

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Tad Eggleston: That's why I want to have a conversation with, like a mixture of people that you know, people who are experiencing it the 1st time people who are on the continuum like me, where it's like, Okay, I get. Why, Chris Ware is a thing.

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Tad Eggleston: But I don't get why Chris wears a thing. And then people like you, and probably my friend Bob Sikoriak and whatnot that are like this is amazing, because.

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Britton Payne: Okay, yeah, absolutely. So this is Jimmy Corgan issue 6. So I have a lot of these originals. There's this one.

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Tad Eggleston: Information. I do.

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Britton Payne: Jimmy.

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Tad Eggleston: Corrigan in the collected edition.

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Britton Payne: Yes, that's what this is. This is the collected edition, which is also.

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Tad Eggleston: To have that.

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Britton Payne: So all of his books are designed.

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Tad Eggleston: And I have sort of rusty, brown, beautiful edition.

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Britton Payne: This is the rusty brown collected. Yeah. And all of the picture of different.

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Tad Eggleston: Building stories.

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Tad Eggleston: I have the building stories.

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Britton Payne: Well to a listener. They're all just names, right. But the but these a lot.

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Tad Eggleston: But yeah, but it's.

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Britton Payne: Well, let me tell you, let me tell you sure. But also, you know, let me tell you a little bit about what what is in the books, which is really what's important. So they're they're largely stories about growing up sad

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Britton Payne: and trying to make peace with being sad. And it feels awfully autobiographical and confessional by the artist. The earlier works of his, all of which I'm looking at right now, which is sort of I'm talking about all of them, briefly, is that they focus on one or 2 white male characters who grew up in Chicago and sort of generational trauma.

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Britton Payne: That you know the the complications of being

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Britton Payne: a little bit poor and sometimes a lot poor in essentially suburban Chicago is what it seems like, and then, hand in hand. With that I have the Chris Webb oh! And then, later in his career, he starts to expand his central character. So he starts to have female central characters and non-white central characters. And it's just you feel like you're sitting with somebody very sad. So you have to be willing to indulge in sadness. For those moments. They don't tend to have happy endings.

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Britton Payne: and they feel bleak, but they are a beautiful, studied, careful bleakness that you know. I can understand why that wouldn't appeal to everybody, especially depending on when in your life you're reading it. So the the last one here is a.

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Britton Payne: There are a couple of books about Chris Ware, and those are what are in here. So these may not be, or I just wanted to touch base on those, even though I know that you're.

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Tad Eggleston: Don't know.

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Britton Payne: Fully separate episode on them.

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Tad Eggleston: Well, I mean you didn't know that before, and and now you know that I know that I have a Major Chris Ware aficionado, I might take it

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Tad Eggleston: further into gear.

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Tad Eggleston: It's he's wonderful science teacher.

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Britton Payne: Oh neat.

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Tad Eggleston: Yeah.

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Britton Payne: Oh, yeah, he's also done drawings for this American life, and.

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Tad Eggleston: And storm.

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Tad Eggleston: New Yorker.

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Tad Eggleston: 23 New Yorker covers.

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Britton Payne: Oh, wow!

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Tad Eggleston: Actually studied one in an English class that I'm in.

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Britton Payne: Hmm.

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Tad Eggleston: With the student we use.

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Britton Payne: Well, he's really great.

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Tad Eggleston: Is there? Right?

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Tad Eggleston: He's correct.

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Tad Eggleston: Yeah, no, I, again cannot emphasize enough.

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Tad Eggleston: I have the utmost respect for Chris Ware.

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Tad Eggleston: but I wouldn't know how to sell a Chris Ware book to somebody to save my life.

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Britton Payne: Well, so the next book in the Cabinet, the next. The next book in the Cabinet is so you know, Chris Ware is pretty pretty, sophisticated, I think, for for readers deceptively sophisticated.

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Britton Payne: And then the next one that just happens to be up here.

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Tad Eggleston: Way to put it, because it seems really simple. But then it's then it's like, what am I? No, there's there's more here.

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Tad Eggleston: Yeah the next book is is called Supergirl takes off. It is a step into reading. DC. Super Friends book.

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Britton Payne: So so just to give you a sense of you know you can love lots of different kinds of things. The reason this is interesting. If you don't have young kids lately, maybe in the last 10 years at least, reading books are are leveled like level 0 level one level 2. So this is a level. 2. Book.

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Tad Eggleston: No, they've been.

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Britton Payne: Refers.

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Tad Eggleston: Least at least 25 years. Now, yeah.

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Britton Payne: Well that refers to the complexity of this vocabulary and the sentences and roughly to grades. So this one.

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Tad Eggleston: Was the published preschool.

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Britton Payne: It's a grade one, this one let's see not clear

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Britton Payne: Random House, Random House. There we go.

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Tad Eggleston: Okay.

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Britton Payne: So DC, comics licenses out to all of these this particular.

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Tad Eggleston: Oh, yeah.

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Britton Payne: Story is done in the DC. Super friends, art style, which is maybe started about 20 years ago, if I remember correctly. Don't think it's the current house style, but it may very well be it's big hands, big feet, big heads.

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Tad Eggleston: All right.

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Britton Payne: And this is DC. Trying to continue to make new DC. Comics, readers and fans. My observation is that in the last 10 years, when my kids were young. Is that Marvel's books? Weren't that great until they hit on the spidey, the current spidey, which might be called Spidey and his amazing friends.

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Tad Eggleston: There's this.

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Britton Payne: Queries.

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Britton Payne: Amazing friend! Where they do

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Britton Payne: the 3 of them they do spidey spin, which is Miles Morales and Ghost Spider, which I don't think is a great name, but they should have changed it to go spider, which is so much easier to say, and that is, Spider Gwen. So those 3 essentially have adventures, and it's a comparable style to this DC Super friends book. But DC. Has really broadly expanded their their kids fair. Yeah.

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Tad Eggleston: DC's been doing all ages stuff for for way longer than.

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Britton Payne: They've been doing all these.

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Tad Eggleston: But they.

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Britton Payne: Also been doing like specific ages. They've been doing ya, they're very, absolutely

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Britton Payne: good. The next one is an easy reader book. It's it's a similar style book. It's called Catch that Crook. It was one of my son's 1st books that he was reading and turning the pages. It's a batman book where Batman is trying to catch catwoman, and it's a see. What level is it? This one? This is a this is a I can read it all by myself. Beginner book. So if you read cat in the hat or put me in the Zoo when you were a kid, this is now given the same treatment. These these batman stories.

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Britton Payne: and I've just found generally that the DC young kids books were really really great and better than the marvel fair until this new newer, spidey one came along.

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Tad Eggleston: The Marvel's been doing a lot with golden books.

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Britton Payne: More recently. Yeah, yeah, they both do. Actually, they both have golden book deals. It's just the character design of those spidey things, the cartoons. It just is very compelling to young kids. I think, in a way that the DC. Books they never quite weren't quite that good DC. Made a real push to get to the girls with their

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Britton Payne: What was that one called the

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Britton Payne: but we'll get to it. But they they had 2 different versions. DC. Superhero girls, that's what it was. They had 2 different iterations of DC. Superhero girls, the 1st

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Britton Payne: like Barbies and princesses. They kind of look like that.

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Britton Payne: And then the second one looked a little bit more like ren and stimpy with the exaggerated anatomies and things like that, to sort of try to appeal to more elasticity and funnier than the other ones were. But both of them that transition happened 5 ish years ago. But now I'm going to the back half some things that I haven't looked at in a while. Our valued customers by Tim Chamberlain conversations from the comic book store. So this is a collection.

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Britton Payne: Oh, wow!

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Britton Payne: They look like newspaper cartoons. They're they're typically one panel. And they're basically illustrations of the things that that somebody who worked at a comic book store overheard said at the comic book store. Tim Chamberlain is a Boston cartoonist. Let's see, when was this thing published?

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Britton Payne: It's got it's got a pull. Quote from Dan Slott and another one from Gail Simone.

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Britton Payne: It's published by pedigree, and it was published 2012. So this is just at the tail end of the the pre digital mainstream comics, era.

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Tad Eggleston: Right.

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Britton Payne: So here one quote regarding the cover of a recent catwoman comic, it's the guy says, real life. Girls don't ever look as realistic as girls in comics.

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Britton Payne: So it's full of all the kind of you know.

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Britton Payne: slightly clueless things that comic book store attendees say, and I guess it's a it's probably a good read, for like when you're going to a comic book store. Here's some things not to say, because somebody behind your back is is pointing out that that was not entirely appropriate.

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Tad Eggleston: What do you.

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Britton Payne: Your Lcs. By the way, when you go to a conflict store, where do you go.

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Tad Eggleston: My poll list is at Dreamland Comics in Libertyville. I,

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Tad Eggleston: though I haven't been there in a while, I maintain a very short pull list and and try to get to challengers, comics, and conversation in Chicago as often as I can.

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Tad Eggleston: There's new guy in comics, and I want to say, Winthrop Harbor, that I go out to

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Tad Eggleston: from time to time.

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Tad Eggleston: In the city. I like to go to Chicago comics and

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Tad Eggleston: couple of others pretty regularly. Keith's comics in Schaumburg I hit somewhat regularly.

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Tad Eggleston: like half the stores in Chicagoland. I'll hit at least twice a year.

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Tad Eggleston: Amazing!

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Tad Eggleston: I guess.

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Tad Eggleston: Down in the south suburbs.

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Britton Payne: In my twenties in New York City to, I guess, twenties and thirties. Really, if I'm thinking about it I would go every Wednesday, and since I went digital in 2012, I don't go quite as frequently. I still buy, and I still go at least once or twice a month somewhere, but some of that's to bring my daughter and let her sort of pick out some things.

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Tad Eggleston: Share your stories right now.

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Britton Payne: My number one store is the comics bug. But I gotta say I haven't really found that which is in Culver City. I also periodically, will go to pulp fiction. Heidi! Ho! Comics closed down. It had a different name, Jeffries comics, I think. But that one closed down and it's reopening a Santa Monica Comics company, I think.

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Britton Payne: But I just haven't really

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Britton Payne: House of Secrets up in Burbank when I worked up there. I really like that store, but I haven't quite clicked with a local comic book store out here the way I did in New York, where there are 3 or 4, any one of which would have been a wonderful

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Britton Payne: regular comic book store. I.

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Tad Eggleston: Yeah, I mean.

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Britton Payne: Was deciding between Midtown comics East or Midtown comics West. When I was in New York.

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Tad Eggleston: I have not actually been to any midtown yet, but in New York anytime I'm in the area. I like to go to forbidden Planet.

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Britton Payne: Which is the comic shop that gave us Matthew Rosenberg and Tyler boss.

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Tad Eggleston: I like to go to Jhu, formerly Jim Hanley Universe.

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Britton Payne: You don't call that Jim Hanley anymore.

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Tad Eggleston: Well, because Jim's dead account admin, and the.

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Britton Payne: My comic book shop for several years, when I lived in that part.

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Tad Eggleston: The Stat, the Staten Island one is the one that I like the best. I have not.

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Britton Payne: To the Staten Island. Any Staten Island comic shop.

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Tad Eggleston: In Brooklyn. I love bulletproof, and anyone.

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Britton Payne: I think those are the newer ones that may have showed up.

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Tad Eggleston: Bulletproof's been there forever.

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Britton Payne: Oh, okay, I may have been there then. I think I've been to all the comic shops in Brooklyn.

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Tad Eggleston: As as Spencer Ackerman says, somewhat regularly, he's been going to bulletproof since he started buying comics, so it's really cool for him to go and sign comics. There, now.

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Britton Payne: Oh, fun!

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Britton Payne: That's really neat. Yeah. So I don't know. I feel like I like having a relationship with my local comic book store. And I also, I feel like, you know, mostly I've lived in cities. So I have not had that Simpsons style experience of some sort of dismissive kid who doesn't want to be there, you know, working behind the counter, being snooty about comics. Mostly I've had like really helpful people who are there to sell stuff, and once they get tired they they leave.

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Britton Payne: You know some are more friendly than other. I didn't find planet that friendly. I love the store. I just didn't find the people working there, you know all that. Helpful or friendly they were. They were fine. But the store itself was great. And then Jim Hanley Universe. There was always a fun conversation that you always felt welcome to take part in, at least again when I was there. There was one Guy Larry who was working there. I really like this. Yeah. So he was really cool. He was. I remember getting into a conversation with him.

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Tad Eggleston: He's 1 of the owners now.

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Britton Payne: Is he really? Oh, that's so wonderful!

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Tad Eggleston: But I'm not a hundred percent certain.

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Britton Payne: Well, this would have been back in the 9.

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Tad Eggleston: Exactly.

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Britton Payne: He's.

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Tad Eggleston: No, no! Well, I mean the the owners now have been there since the eighties.

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Britton Payne: Yeah.

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Tad Eggleston: I mean. I don't even think they bought the store. I think it was left to them.

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Britton Payne: Wow! Oh, that's so cool. Well, and then, Larry! I talked to him about Ollie Queen versus Clint Barton. We had kind of a long chat about that. I remember one time.

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Tad Eggleston: I mean the the one that

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Tad Eggleston: I don't know how far you are from Pasadena.

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Tad Eggleston: the the one that the most of my la friends

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Tad Eggleston: are big fans of and sign at regularly and go to on their own is 4 color fantasies.

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Britton Payne: I've probably been there, you know, when I 1st got here 8 or 9 years ago, I went to as many different stores as I could right

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Britton Payne: But I I still

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Britton Payne: quite. I just I feel like I haven't quite found my regular spot. And now that I'm doing Dcbs, there's less incentive to do it. The guys I do like the guys at comic Bug. They're very nice, though.

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Britton Payne: So this next one is the amazing adventures cavalier and Clay.

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Tad Eggleston: Fantastic book. Did you know that his brother did you know that his brother is a

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Tad Eggleston: editor at Dark Horse?

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Britton Payne: No, no, I did not. Is that where he publishes the escapist through.

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Tad Eggleston: It is.

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Britton Payne: Oh, that's pretty cool. Yeah, I I adored this.

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Tad Eggleston: I mean, that was really

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Tad Eggleston: hasn't published The Escapist in a while, but when it was published it was a dark horse, comic.

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Britton Payne: As much of a fan of comics as I am, and I'm in the category of about as big as you can get. I think my favorite chapter in that book was when they went to Antarctica.

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Britton Payne: and part of what I liked about it was that I don't read a lot of novels because I read most of my fiction. Comic book form

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Britton Payne: and comic book form tends to be a fairly efficient storytelling. The the flexive fancy you get in comics, I think, is like in a serialized comic like by Chuck Dixon, where he'll sort of introduce 8 new lead characters, not new lead characters, new supporting characters. And while he's telling 1 6 issue arc, and then he gets to the end of that arc. And he's like, Okay, which supporting characters have I? And have I not talked about, or which one's interesting me? Or where's my lead character going, and which supporting character supports that so you might get to the end of a 6 year run, and some characters who got introduced to you thought might become a love in.

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Britton Payne: or a rival, or something like that never get their threads picked up. And so that's where sort of the flights of fancy I think that I enjoy appear in comics, in novels which, like I said, I don't read that much. It's surprising to me when they kind of 2 thirds of the way through some book they all of a sudden have some adventure that has nothing to do with the main adventure other than metaphorically.

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Tad Eggleston: I love Michael Chabon period. I read everything he writes.

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Tad Eggleston: and and as much as I love amazing adventures of cavalier and clay. I think it's like

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Tad Eggleston: maybe my 3rd favorite book of his.

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Britton Payne: Wow!

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Britton Payne: I I adore that.

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Tad Eggleston: Depends on the day of the week.

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Tad Eggleston: Some days it might be like my least favorite of his novels. Well, no, I think mysteries at Pittsburgh, which is his 1st novel, always comes in at the bottom.

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Tad Eggleston: not because it's bad, but you can tell that he's still finding him. I think he wrote it, and when he was in college he was still very much finding himself. Whatnot. And the other thing about Chabon that I love is like his novels tend to be very different. So it's hard to really compare them to each other.

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Tad Eggleston: said Antarctica. As soon as you said Antarctica, I thought of

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Tad Eggleston: Oh, God! Why can't I remember the name of it right now? He did.

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Britton Payne: Why don'.

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Tad Eggleston: Know that that before. Well, why not's great? But I was thinking of a Chabon book, the Yiddish Policeman's Union

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Tad Eggleston: before before Israel was actually founded. One of the alternatives being kicked around was to give them an area in Alaska.

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Britton Payne: So well.

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Tad Eggleston: He wrote a murder, mystery and an alternate history.

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Britton Payne: There we go!

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Tad Eggleston: Set in essentially the Israel in Alaska.

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Britton Payne: Oh, that's interesting. Oh, that's fun. Well, yeah, what I liked about it. So the the scene I like this book

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Britton Payne: primarily, obviously, because, you know, it was a very well regarded book, but also it was specifically about the early decade of.

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Tad Eggleston: Yes.

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Britton Payne: Comic books in America, and so sometimes it referred to real world characters, and sometimes it primarily dwelt on fictional characters, some of whom had similar stories as the real World people, but it mostly lived in that world of publishing comics, in the thirties and forties.

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Tad Eggleston: Right. I mean, it's it's a spiritual sibling of Alex Segura's recent.

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Britton Payne: Secret identity and alter egos where? Where? Where?

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Tad Eggleston: You've got a fictional publisher

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Tad Eggleston: in with real publishers. So you're mixing history and and realistic fiction into that history. Yeah. And so.

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Britton Payne: As you get into the book, you're sort of understanding the rivals among the various different companies. And as a person who reads comics, you know that you know the big publishers are Marvel and DC. And sort of their rivalry has ebb and flowed over the years. And then all of a sudden, in the middle of this book they go off to Antarctica. The guy gets drafted into World War 2, and he gets assigned to be in. You know, the Arctic base and across the way is, maybe it wasn't World War, whatever. Whenever it was.

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Tad Eggleston: Should have been, yeah, tomorrow.

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Britton Payne: Because it could have been because he he gets stationed, and he is poking his head above the snow to use his binoculars to check out the Soviet base across the way, and then he sees his Soviet counterpart doing the same thing to him. And that's essentially what that chunk was about, and I was reading, and I'm like, why on earth am I reading this? But by the end I was like, I just appreciate that the book is able to meander in a way that a more focused, you know, for other forms of pop culture don't tend to do.

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Britton Payne: and that's probably very normal in novels, especially good novels, but it was new ish to me, and felt fresh to me. So that was

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Britton Payne: that to be my.

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Tad Eggleston: A lot of my, a lot of my favorite comics manage to do that, too.

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Tad Eggleston: I've started dubbing it messy in the best possible way.

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Britton Payne: I mean, it reminds me of the pirate story in Watchman. You know that.

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Tad Eggleston: Right. Why is this in here? There's that, but also just like beginnings and endings.

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Tad Eggleston: If they're not birth and death, they're kind of arbitrary

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Tad Eggleston: and and frankly, even with their birth and death. You know. What about the parent's story? What about like the kids story or the friend's story, you know, deciding where to start and end. Something is arbitrary to begin with. So the idea that every possible plot thread that affected the characters lives during that time would actually go somewhere

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Tad Eggleston: isn't entirely

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Tad Eggleston: realistic, which doesn't mean that it wouldn't affect who they are and how they make their decisions.

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Britton Payne: Yeah, I mean, look all that.

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Tad Eggleston: That makes sense.

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Britton Payne: Form, sure. But it depends on your form. Right? If you're making a movie, you only have 90 min. It has to be a big story that justifies spending money right?

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Tad Eggleston: If you're doing.

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Britton Payne: Serialized television. You can't do a big story, because that's when somebody dies and you can't kill a main character in your average serialized television.

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Tad Eggleston: I get the the financial aspects. But

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Tad Eggleston: but that's that's different from from the storytelling side. I think it can often.

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Britton Payne: Oh, but you can tell your story in many different.

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Tad Eggleston: You can't.

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Britton Payne: Your story you can, and then but.

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Tad Eggleston: That's why.

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Britton Payne: A comic. It might be a novel.

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Tad Eggleston: Possible. Way, yeah.

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Britton Payne: Yeah. And that's, I guess a novel probably gives you the flexibility to, you know, explore things that may or may not pay off, or that may or may not be readily apparent, or that don't have to be so purposefully driving the plot. You know they, if you say catchphrase early in a movie, you know, you're gonna hear it later in the movie. But in a novel you can.

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Tad Eggleston: I actually think I think comics have the most space, because it can be in the same panel.

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Britton Payne: Yeah, yes, it can be. But then also, the difference with comics is that like?

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Britton Payne: And the people that don't well can't kill the joker.

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Tad Eggleston: Don't.

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Tad Eggleston: Well, yeah, but I'm not talking about killing people. I'm talking about

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Tad Eggleston: doing that messy thing like being off in Antarctica

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Tad Eggleston: that doesn't like drive the plot, but does drive the character.

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Tad Eggleston: You could do that.

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Britton Payne: Or something. It doesn't necessarily drive the character, either. It could be a dry. It just serves as a metaphor for the broader story, which is kind of what?

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Britton Payne: The pirate story and watchmen does.

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Tad Eggleston: Right.

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Britton Payne: Well. So Michael Chabon, of the Adventures of Cavalier and Clay. The next book is the Kingdom Come, Elliot S. Magan novelization.

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Tad Eggleston: The novelization.

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Britton Payne: Yeah, this is a prose book. It is largely unread, but it's also available as a full cast audio drama from time Warner books. It's from Wow, 1998. I think this might be. Oh, yeah, it says, advanced reading copy, not for resale, hard cover. Publication date March 26, th 1998. So this is some sort of bootleg of this, and it's Elliot S. Magan who in the comics the S. What was interesting about the S. Of Elliot, S. Magan.

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Tad Eggleston: No period.

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Britton Payne: Well, no, that was Harry S. Truman. I'm getting confused, Scott Shaw! Was Scott Shaw! Exclamation point.

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Britton Payne: and I, for some reason I was thinking that Elliot S. Megan! Was Elliot. S. Exclamation point Megan. And now I'm realizing.

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Tad Eggleston: I.

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Britton Payne: I'm confusing. My team generally has the magnitude.

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Tad Eggleston: After his after, or the explanation point after Megan, because I'm pretty sure.

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Britton Payne: I think that was Scott Shaw. I think I'm getting them confused. In any event, it's Elliot S. Magan who wrote Superman. He's actually really interesting to listen to. If you get a chance to find a podcast where they're talking to him, he's he's a pretty neat interview. Elliot Maggan. But he's specifically talking about comics. You know. He's the 19 eighties Superman.

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Tad Eggleston: No, no, it is often spelled Elliot S.

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Tad Eggleston: But

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Britton Payne: Exclamation, point.

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Tad Eggleston: Exclamation, point.

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Britton Payne: Oh, okay, all right. Good. Well, that makes me feel better. I'm not misremembering that.

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Tad Eggleston: Yeah.

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Britton Payne: The Kingdom come. Documentary is coming out pretty soon, and our friend Stanford Carpenter, among many others, are commentators in it, and I'm really looking forward to seeing that I think it might already be out for the patreons, although I thought I was a Patreon, or whatever it is, a Kickstarter person. So I'm really looking forward to seeing it because it's a deep dive into the creation of Kingdom Come. And it was done over the last 5 years basically by Sal.

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Tad Eggleston: Right.

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Britton Payne: Avenatti, I think his last name is who is like art dealer, friend, artist. Right? Yeah.

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Britton Payne: Kind of person to listen to.

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Tad Eggleston: Booking. Agent, yeah.

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Britton Payne: Yeah, kind of helping them kind of as far as I can tell everything out of the way, so that we can let Alex Ross do the thing that we want him to do.

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Tad Eggleston: Right. The way I understand it is. You don't get to Alex except through Sal.

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Britton Payne: Right and Sal was, I heard, an interview with Sal on a podcast the other day.

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Tad Eggleston: Thoroughly.

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Britton Payne: There!

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Tad Eggleston: We'll say quietly for people who were listening at the beginning. Alex does not regularly, regularly anymore.

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Tad Eggleston: but has been frequenting my comic shop since he was in high school.

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Britton Payne: Oh, well, oh, that's neat!

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Britton Payne: Well, he's got.

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Tad Eggleston: They're friends with the owner from before. Well, from when the owner was the owner. Now of the comic shop that I go to, and this is a common thing with comic shops, was the second employee at that comic shop. The 1st employee is actually my boss at the high school, or one of one of my bosses at the High School. Did I just lose Brit? Let's

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Tad Eggleston: all right. Britt has returned, so I've unpaused the recording.

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Britton Payne: Well, so you were talking about Alex Ross being at your local comic book store. Apparently there's.

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Tad Eggleston: Exhibit going on regular there.

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Britton Payne: Apparently it's gonna be a big Alex Ross exhibit going on with the the old DC. Comics covers that he did back 20 years ago. Now, you know, original painting. So there's there's a museum that's gonna have all of those paintings on.

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Tad Eggleston: Oh, I know the exhibit it debuted at.

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Britton Payne: Did it.

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Tad Eggleston: At A, at A, at a Libertyville museum, like 3 years ago.

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Britton Payne: Well, there's apparently there's a new one coming.

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Tad Eggleston: No, no.

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Britton Payne: One coming, now.

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Tad Eggleston: Yeah, I mean that that exhibit has been traveling along with the book.

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Britton Payne: I think this might be a different thing. I think this might be. It's something to keep an eye out, for, if you like, Alex Ross, apparently going to be a great new exhibit coming out soon. All right. So this next book is. There's so much story behind this book. I'm curious if you know what it is.

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Tad Eggleston: Pedro and me is it's the guy from

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Tad Eggleston: yeah. Judd Winnick, from his time on real world.

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Britton Payne: Yeah. So the real world, as people know as a reality show from Mtv.

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Tad Eggleston: Like San Francisco was like the second, yeah.

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Britton Payne: 1st season was exactly my age. It was in New York. They were still figuring out what it was the second season, and for those of you who aren't familiar with the real world. It's a reality show a very early reality show on Mtv. Maybe one of the 1st

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Britton Payne: where they just took a bunch of kids who were in their early twenties, threw them in an apartment to get, took them from all over the country, threw them in an apartment together and filmed the whole thing just to see what would happen the 1st season didn't nothing that much happened. There was. There were little. There was a little bit of tension here and there, but it's mostly just hanging out with people who were relatively charismatic.

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Britton Payne: And then the second season they did the same thing in San Francisco. But one of the this would have been back in 1993, Ish, maybe 94, and one of the one of the actors, not actors. They're people. They weren't actors. I guess. One of the people cast on the show was this guy.

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Tad Eggleston: A Cabinet member, but we won't.

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Britton Payne: From real world, not from.

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Tad Eggleston: From will, not from not from San Francisco. No, from a much later season.

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Britton Payne: Yeah. And so this would have been 93 back when Aids was still ravaging the gay community and and was a death sentence, basically. And so Pedro was this sweet young man who was HIV positive and got put on the show.

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Tad Eggleston: Also about the same time that the most famous

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Tad Eggleston: still living person with Aids was diagnosed.

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Britton Payne: Right around that.

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Tad Eggleston: Right. So it was a death sentence, but it also clearly was a turning point, because, like, I remember that at that time

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Tad Eggleston: we were expecting magic to be gone in a few years, and.

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Britton Payne: Yeah.

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Tad Eggleston: Yeah, he owns the dodgers. Now.

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Britton Payne: He was right. He was. That was right on the cusp of it. But but in terms of the national consciousness, that's, you know. Aids occupied a different place. HIV and Aids.

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Britton Payne: Oh, yeah.

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Britton Payne: different place in the national consciousness back then than it does now and back then. It was a very serious, scary thing for a lot of people. And so here was this young man who was out and gay, which is also not quite as common back then as it is now, and he had a bunch of roommates, one of whom was, I believe, a local cartoonist in the local San Francisco newspaper named Judd Winnick. So the show had a lot of confrontations, some of which revolved around

349
00:33:15.218 --> 00:33:21.090
Britton Payne: Pedro and his health concerns at the time, and and the other cast members

350
00:33:21.590 --> 00:33:25.899
Britton Payne: varying willingness to be supportive and tolerant, and

351
00:33:25.960 --> 00:33:52.679
Britton Payne: you know some were more so, and some were less so so on the show. Judd Winnick ended up getting into a relationship with one of his cast members. They ended up getting married. She was a doctor, and Judd's cartooning career took off. Pedro became pretty inspirational around the country for a lot of people. He was the 1st person that you knew in quotes who was HIV positive, and he was really meaningful to a lot of people, including Judd. So Judd ended up writing a graphic novel

352
00:33:52.680 --> 00:34:22.130
Britton Payne: called Pedro and Me Friendship Loss, and what I learned, and with the spoiler alert for a 30 year old. But Pedro didn't survive much longer after the show. Within a few years, I think he had passed, and Judd had a very. This was an important book and a really good book by him that detailed their friendship and their time together, and a little bit of a time afterwards Judd went on to become not only a very well regarded cartoonist, but he ended up becoming a great comic book artist. He had his own series, which I didn't really read that much. Do you remember which one.

353
00:34:22.139 --> 00:34:22.789
Tad Eggleston: Barry Wynn.

354
00:34:23.060 --> 00:34:26.435
Britton Payne: Barry genius, Barry Ween, boy genius, which was a

355
00:34:26.969 --> 00:34:27.690
Britton Payne: A cartoon.

356
00:34:27.699 --> 00:34:28.369
Tad Eggleston: Hilarious.

357
00:34:28.370 --> 00:34:30.690
Britton Payne: Anything to me but a cartoony style.

358
00:34:30.690 --> 00:34:31.510
Tad Eggleston: Was hilarious.

359
00:34:31.510 --> 00:34:33.440
Britton Payne: For young kids, right or how, how.

360
00:34:33.440 --> 00:34:33.900
Britton Payne: No.

361
00:34:33.900 --> 00:34:35.049
Tad Eggleston: Was that, for that was all ages

362
00:34:35.050 --> 00:34:49.710
Tad Eggleston: comics, you know. If I recall correctly, it was one of those that looked like it could be for your kids. But if you were silly enough to buy it for your kids, you were going to get some interesting questions and or words coming out of their mouths.

363
00:34:49.710 --> 00:35:05.389
Britton Payne: Well, he! So he did that, and it was very well regarded for a while, and then he leapt into the DC. Universe right at a time when I was. I'm still steeped in DC. But it was a really strong period, in my opinion, for the DC. Universe. It was sort of early Jeff Johns, I believe, and

364
00:35:05.691 --> 00:35:27.370
Britton Payne: he wrote the story that brought Jason Todd back into the DC. Universe for for newer readers that might not mean much for but for a long time. And although it wasn't that long, was it? 10 or 15 years Jason stays dead, you know. Jason was sort of this mark in Batman's mind that you have to be more thoughtful and careful, and it was part of what

365
00:35:27.370 --> 00:35:48.299
Britton Payne: led Batman to being a more depressive figure and and sort of darker than he had been in previous iterations, and maybe even since but during that period when Jason was dead. It was the. It was Batman's greatest failure, you know. He had the cost. He had Jason Todd's costume up in his batcave, so Judd brought him back, and he did it in a fairly.

366
00:35:48.300 --> 00:35:53.060
Tad Eggleston: Yeah, that was actually in 2,005. So that was he was gone for 21 years. So.

367
00:35:53.060 --> 00:35:53.570
Britton Payne: No, no.

368
00:35:53.570 --> 00:35:54.240
Tad Eggleston: 14.

369
00:35:54.240 --> 00:35:54.780
Britton Payne: So.

370
00:35:55.060 --> 00:35:55.400
Tad Eggleston: Sure.

371
00:35:55.500 --> 00:35:56.100
Britton Payne: No. 8.

372
00:35:56.100 --> 00:35:56.490
Tad Eggleston: He's sick.

373
00:35:56.490 --> 00:36:00.420
Britton Payne: He was created. That was, that was early Jason Todd. He wouldn't have died for.

374
00:36:00.420 --> 00:36:00.830
Tad Eggleston: Okay.

375
00:36:00.830 --> 00:36:01.780
Britton Payne: Couple of years after that.

376
00:36:01.780 --> 00:36:03.160
Tad Eggleston: Hey! We're.

377
00:36:03.160 --> 00:36:03.950
Britton Payne: Splitting hairs between.

378
00:36:03.950 --> 00:36:04.300
Tad Eggleston: Yes.

379
00:36:04.300 --> 00:36:08.590
Britton Payne: 5 year range, you know. He would have started in about 84, but he would have died.

380
00:36:08.590 --> 00:36:09.930
Tad Eggleston: No 1st impression.

381
00:36:09.930 --> 00:36:10.270
Britton Payne: You too.

382
00:36:10.270 --> 00:36:11.820
Tad Eggleston: 83.

383
00:36:12.690 --> 00:36:16.670
Britton Payne: And then they switched his origin at the crisis in 85 from being another.

384
00:36:16.670 --> 00:36:17.090
Tad Eggleston: Circus.

385
00:36:17.090 --> 00:36:20.546
Britton Payne: Boy to the boy who was stealing Batman's hubcaps.

386
00:36:21.660 --> 00:36:23.979
Britton Payne: and then death in the family would have been about 91.

387
00:36:23.980 --> 00:36:25.100
Tad Eggleston: Okay, 88.

388
00:36:25.340 --> 00:36:28.669
Britton Payne: Oh, excuse me. Oh, okay, earlier than I thought. Oh, so you're right. So then he was different.

389
00:36:28.670 --> 00:36:33.519
Tad Eggleston: No, I I knew I was still a young kid, because the comic shop that, like

390
00:36:34.740 --> 00:36:37.680
Tad Eggleston: I went to when Jason Todd died.

391
00:36:37.840 --> 00:36:40.940
Tad Eggleston: was not there by the time I was in middle school.

392
00:36:41.350 --> 00:36:43.560
Tad Eggleston: so I knew it had to be the eighties.

393
00:36:45.190 --> 00:37:00.560
Britton Payne: Well, so Judd, you know, brought him back, and then he had a he also. Then he slid over to Marvel, and he did exiles, which was just this wonderful what if style book it took a different? It had a different way of doing what if? And it was before the multiverse was old Hat really on the marvel side of things?

394
00:37:01.011 --> 00:37:14.928
Britton Payne: Where he had these people, these characters that were collected from various different universes and put on this team that was designed to go around and fix terrors in time, space continuum type stuff so that he would visit the planet where?

395
00:37:15.390 --> 00:37:33.130
Britton Payne: you know every every marvel character was a robot, and they had to do such and such, or they visited a world where what if Dr. Doom became spider-man, or whatever. So so it was a really really great series that he wrote, and Jim Calfiori Drew. I loved that series. It was so so good, and he really cracked this, not of how to make a narrative. What if story

396
00:37:33.414 --> 00:37:53.320
Britton Payne: which has been in my mind, you know, copied and sort of iterated, and sometimes improved, and sometimes made worse. But certainly become very commonplace since that time. So he's been. He's great. I met him once or twice at comic. Cons. He seems like a lovely guy. He's still knocking around, you know, in the comics world doing things. And this was his 1st meaningful book, I thought.

397
00:37:53.350 --> 00:38:02.799
Britton Payne: but I'm really liking. It's kind of thin. Oh, yeah, green lantern. He did. This was back. This is back when he did. Green Lantern. He published this book when he did. Green lantern.

398
00:38:04.020 --> 00:38:11.230
Britton Payne: So that was a really good 1. 0, and here's comes the next book on the shelf is something, somebody that we've kind of already spoken up, so spoken about a little bit.

399
00:38:11.230 --> 00:38:11.900
Tad Eggleston: Catalyle.

400
00:38:11.900 --> 00:38:13.279
Britton Payne: So it's got to lie on. It's a lean in the.

401
00:38:13.280 --> 00:38:14.539
Tad Eggleston: I don't know if I know that one.

402
00:38:14.730 --> 00:38:22.039
Britton Payne: It's it's a wordless collection of comics, largely so. We've we've talked a little bit about.

403
00:38:22.040 --> 00:38:22.999
Tad Eggleston: He's got a book coming out.

404
00:38:23.000 --> 00:38:23.330
Britton Payne: File.

405
00:38:23.330 --> 00:38:26.579
Tad Eggleston: Soon, Moybridge, about the guy.

406
00:38:27.420 --> 00:38:28.059
Tad Eggleston: I did.

407
00:38:28.060 --> 00:38:33.570
Britton Payne: I think I remember you talking about that on yours. I I thought that was really great. Yeah. So Guy Delisle is, an he's somebody who's just good.

408
00:38:33.570 --> 00:38:37.580
Tad Eggleston: Course, of course you're like throwing out an out of print. Guide a while.

409
00:38:37.930 --> 00:38:38.830
Britton Payne: Oh, really.

410
00:38:39.280 --> 00:38:42.969
Tad Eggleston: Does use copies out there. But but yeah, it's.

411
00:38:42.970 --> 00:38:44.539
Britton Payne: What what year was that?

412
00:38:45.250 --> 00:38:47.559
Tad Eggleston: 2,006.

413
00:38:47.760 --> 00:38:52.940
Britton Payne: Petit leave, which is a little books drawn quarterly must have republished it.

414
00:38:54.100 --> 00:38:55.570
Britton Payne: Yeah, 2,006.

415
00:38:56.370 --> 00:38:58.609
Britton Payne: I guess he's French. I know that sounds silly to ask.

416
00:38:58.610 --> 00:39:00.010
Tad Eggleston: I believe so.

417
00:39:00.010 --> 00:39:01.850
Britton Payne: He might be French Canadian. I don't really know.

418
00:39:02.010 --> 00:39:05.940
Britton Payne: I like his books, though I've I've never read God, Dalau, that I didn't like, you know some I like.

419
00:39:05.940 --> 00:39:06.370
Tad Eggleston: Neither of us.

420
00:39:06.370 --> 00:39:10.480
Britton Payne: But they're all really good. They're not classic comic books, no superheroes that I know of.

421
00:39:10.820 --> 00:39:11.150
Tad Eggleston: Well.

422
00:39:11.150 --> 00:39:12.570
Britton Payne: They are. They are really great.

423
00:39:12.820 --> 00:39:18.350
Tad Eggleston: I would argue with the idea that superheroes are classic comic books, but that's a whole different discussion.

424
00:39:20.170 --> 00:39:22.600
Britton Payne: The next one. Do you know this one.

425
00:39:22.910 --> 00:39:24.139
Tad Eggleston: I do?

426
00:39:24.440 --> 00:39:35.079
Britton Payne: Fortune and Glory, by a true Hollywood Comic Book, Story, by Brian Michael Bendis. Now this book was published in 1997. I would just guess how far.

427
00:39:35.080 --> 00:39:35.530
Tad Eggleston: Wanted to.

428
00:39:35.530 --> 00:39:35.890
Britton Payne: We think.

429
00:39:35.890 --> 00:39:36.350
Tad Eggleston: Something.

430
00:39:36.350 --> 00:39:37.460
Britton Payne: That's the over under.

431
00:39:37.980 --> 00:39:40.940
Tad Eggleston: No, I think you might have nailed it. 98, maybe.

432
00:39:42.180 --> 00:39:45.029
Britton Payne: Man. I'm struggling to read this. It's a it's white.

433
00:39:45.030 --> 00:39:46.919
Tad Eggleston: And glory, the musical.

434
00:39:47.100 --> 00:39:48.480
Britton Payne: That's the newer ones.

435
00:39:48.800 --> 00:39:52.579
Tad Eggleston: Is out now just came.

436
00:39:52.580 --> 00:39:57.872
Britton Payne: This. So this is before Brian. Michael Bendis was a household name in comics.

437
00:39:58.250 --> 00:39:58.930
Tad Eggleston: I mean.

438
00:39:58.930 --> 00:40:04.350
Britton Payne: And back. Then he had jinx and goldfish, and something called fire.

439
00:40:04.650 --> 00:40:06.130
Britton Payne: and I think that was it.

440
00:40:06.250 --> 00:40:07.170
Britton Payne: Maybe towards.

441
00:40:07.170 --> 00:40:11.050
Tad Eggleston: And I think Powers had just started.

442
00:40:11.050 --> 00:40:21.080
Britton Payne: You know. Honestly, I I don't think it had, because in the back it says all the other things that he has created and powers is not in there. So there might be a reason. You might still be.

443
00:40:21.080 --> 00:40:26.149
Tad Eggleston: What I'm saying is I want to say when I say just started, I mean, like

444
00:40:26.290 --> 00:40:32.410
Tad Eggleston: fortune and glory came out the same week as like issue 2 or 3 of powers.

445
00:40:33.600 --> 00:40:41.019
Tad Eggleston: and the only reason I remember that as a possibility is because I know that

446
00:40:41.838 --> 00:40:51.359
Tad Eggleston: the comic shop that I was going to just ordered me a copy, because they knew how much I'd loved the 1st couple of issues of powers, and they saw Brian Michael Bendis.

447
00:40:51.480 --> 00:40:57.159
Tad Eggleston: So they added it to the order, and it was there when I got there that I actually

448
00:40:57.470 --> 00:41:01.119
Tad Eggleston: that's among the 1st things I ever read from Bendis.

449
00:41:01.780 --> 00:41:11.180
Britton Payne: Well, this apparently collects issues one through 3 of the only press fortune and glory. So I didn't realize this was a collection, and I can barely read this.

450
00:41:11.180 --> 00:41:15.269
Tad Eggleston: The collection came out at roughly the same time as Powers.

451
00:41:15.450 --> 00:41:18.960
Britton Payne: I see, because this is says, I think, seems to say, June 2,000. But my.

452
00:41:19.520 --> 00:41:19.890
Tad Eggleston: Well done!

453
00:41:19.890 --> 00:41:20.220
Britton Payne: 9.

454
00:41:20.220 --> 00:41:22.690
Tad Eggleston: That would make it like the second.

455
00:41:24.460 --> 00:41:28.610
Britton Payne: How the print is so small I'm getting so old. Well, anyway, it's I think it's.

456
00:41:28.610 --> 00:41:31.340
Tad Eggleston: I have it multiple times. I love fortune and glory.

457
00:41:31.340 --> 00:41:31.969
Britton Payne: So tell me about.

458
00:41:31.970 --> 00:41:33.820
Tad Eggleston: And need to read the new one.

459
00:41:33.820 --> 00:41:37.100
Britton Payne: What's the story of fortune and glory cause? I vaguely remember it. I remember loving.

460
00:41:37.100 --> 00:41:39.290
Tad Eggleston: Fortune and glory is

461
00:41:40.810 --> 00:41:48.310
Tad Eggleston: not long after. I think it was even goldfish. Somebody in Hollywood heard that goldfish was this great comic.

462
00:41:48.730 --> 00:41:53.530
Britton Payne: It was, and Goldfish was a comic book. Noir, murder, detective type, story.

463
00:41:53.530 --> 00:41:55.919
Tad Eggleston: Right that he drew on his own.

464
00:41:56.120 --> 00:41:58.000
Tad Eggleston: I mean early Bendis.

465
00:41:58.120 --> 00:42:19.948
Tad Eggleston: you know it's great, but it's also got yeah. It's you gotta you gotta experience. There's a reason Brian doesn't draw anymore, though. He came up when I was talking to Matt Rosenberg the other day because Matt actually got him to do a cover for what's the furthest place from here? It was the 1st time he'd drawn anything in like 10 years at least for publication.

466
00:42:22.490 --> 00:42:31.609
Tad Eggleston: fortune and glory is about his Hollywood experience with. I'm pretty certain goldfish that essentially started with

467
00:42:33.350 --> 00:42:42.909
Tad Eggleston: phone call to option it. And then he wound up, taking all of these meetings with higher and higher up people raving, I mean the part that I remember, like the most is, he's like

468
00:42:43.120 --> 00:42:50.930
Tad Eggleston: this person. They raven read, and like. The longer the talk goes on, the more he becomes absolutely clear in his mind that they haven't read it.

469
00:42:52.620 --> 00:42:55.020
Britton Payne: That's so great.

470
00:42:55.020 --> 00:43:00.079
Tad Eggleston: They're they're all over it. It's such. It's wonderful stuff, blah blah! And he's like

471
00:43:00.550 --> 00:43:06.270
Tad Eggleston: at some point there's something will be said was like. I don't think he's read my book.

472
00:43:07.050 --> 00:43:07.810
Britton Payne: That is really fun.

473
00:43:07.810 --> 00:43:14.376
Tad Eggleston: But it's the whole thing where he gets this money and it goes through. You know it's it's the Hollywood turnaround thing. It's something is again cause

474
00:43:14.870 --> 00:43:18.790
Tad Eggleston: People listening to this may have listened to the Matt Rosenberg

475
00:43:18.900 --> 00:43:34.239
Tad Eggleston: interview that I did Thursday, where we talked a little bit about the fact that his 4 kids walk into the bank is in production right now. And I asked about like how it was. And he's like it was a little weird, because, like it got optioned like before it was even finished

476
00:43:34.650 --> 00:43:35.700
Tad Eggleston: and and

477
00:43:35.700 --> 00:43:54.879
Tad Eggleston: options had been. Options had lapsed and options had been picked up again like almost everything in comics gets optioned, you know. People will talk about, hey? You know, I know that I'll get a $2,000 check every 4 or 5 years, because somebody will. You know the option will lapse on this, and somebody else will pick it up.

478
00:43:55.900 --> 00:44:22.089
Britton Payne: There's an interesting complication that happens when you option a comic book before it has been published, and even before it's been finished. And that's the question of what are you optioning? And from whom? If you think about a writer and an artist, they're contributing different things to a comic book and it is possible that before something is published that a person buying the option might want the script, but not particularly care for the visuals, and so

479
00:44:22.100 --> 00:44:34.209
Britton Payne: is a comic book. OP. Does a comic book option require optioning from a pre publication comic book option require getting an option from both the writer and the artist, or just from the writer, and that's.

480
00:44:34.210 --> 00:44:34.670
Tad Eggleston: Well.

481
00:44:34.670 --> 00:44:35.859
Britton Payne: I think that depends on.

482
00:44:35.860 --> 00:44:38.980
Tad Eggleston: I I don't know overall, for for

483
00:44:38.980 --> 00:44:45.599
Tad Eggleston: 4 kids walk into a bank. It was from both of them, and

484
00:44:45.920 --> 00:45:03.959
Tad Eggleston: well, Tyler wasn't on this last time that I talked with Matthew, Matthew did talk about when he and Tyler went to the set, and Tyler was actually probably more blown away because of the number of things that they took the visual straight from the comic. He's sitting there going. I based this house off of my grandmother's house, and now I'm standing in it in Ireland.

485
00:45:04.560 --> 00:45:08.830
Britton Payne: Wow! Oh, that's so cool! That's really neat. Well.

486
00:45:08.830 --> 00:45:14.239
Tad Eggleston: Yeah. So fortune and glory was. I mean, obviously, goldfish has never become a movie. Even now.

487
00:45:14.240 --> 00:45:16.439
Britton Payne: Right right, which I imagine like.

488
00:45:16.440 --> 00:45:17.600
Tad Eggleston: 5 years later.

489
00:45:17.600 --> 00:45:19.959
Britton Payne: Revisiting fortune and glory, the musical, so.

490
00:45:19.960 --> 00:45:28.659
Tad Eggleston: So well. Fortune and glory of the musical is about his time. On he he was involved in the spider-man, musical, that, like was a colossal flop.

491
00:45:28.660 --> 00:45:29.620
Britton Payne: Oh, yeah.

492
00:45:29.920 --> 00:45:31.370
Tad Eggleston: Which is why I need to read it.

493
00:45:33.008 --> 00:45:35.049
Tad Eggleston: I'm really curious. Is this.

494
00:45:35.050 --> 00:45:40.040
Britton Payne: Oh, that musical! I never saw it. Julie was a genius, though, like legit genius.

495
00:45:40.040 --> 00:45:41.029
Britton Payne: Yeah, I agree.

496
00:45:41.030 --> 00:45:44.739
Britton Payne: I'm sad. The 2 things that I loved came together, and it did not succeed.

497
00:45:44.740 --> 00:45:57.699
Tad Eggleston: But but yeah, so so fortune and glory is about like the whirlwind. That is Hollywood, for for the guy that just makes cartoons and isn't known particularly well. And

498
00:45:57.930 --> 00:45:58.670
Tad Eggleston: why? Well.

499
00:45:58.670 --> 00:46:27.940
Britton Payne: So for me. That book hits a particular time in my life. In particular, introduction to Bruce, Michael Brian, Michael Bendis. Some close friends of mine were part of what they called the Bendis boards, and they I remain friends with some of those guys, even though I was never on the Bendis boards, and that's how they all found each other in New York. The second thing is that his dialogue style was at the time extremely refreshing. It was for some reason just felt different in the same way that the dialogue of clerks felt different from any movie you'd ever seen at that point. Now, I don't think you would watch it and say that it might seem stilted.

500
00:46:27.940 --> 00:46:28.270
Tad Eggleston: Well.

501
00:46:28.270 --> 00:46:32.139
Britton Payne: Way, but at the time it it felt so fresh and so did that.

502
00:46:32.140 --> 00:46:37.400
Tad Eggleston: What both of them did like. If Aaron Sorkin.

503
00:46:37.520 --> 00:46:42.040
Britton Payne: Is the guy that writes the dialogue that you wish you could come up with in the moment.

504
00:46:42.343 --> 00:46:42.950
Britton Payne: If if.

505
00:46:42.950 --> 00:46:59.419
Tad Eggleston: Feels real, because, like all of his characters, say that thing that you think of 10 min later. That you should have said is the comeback. So it's like the the ideal version. Kevin Smith and Brian Bendis, I think, were

506
00:47:00.050 --> 00:47:03.270
Tad Eggleston: probably not the 1st people ever but definitely

507
00:47:04.890 --> 00:47:12.910
Tad Eggleston: kind of next to each other in this idea that, like, we can have people talk the way we actually talk and still have it be interesting.

508
00:47:13.150 --> 00:47:17.559
Britton Payne: I would. I agree with you that that's how it felt at the time, I think, looking back

509
00:47:17.909 --> 00:47:42.310
Britton Payne: we can see it for the trick that it is, you know, but but I think at the time it was just so different than what else was out there that I really appreciated and the pacing and stuff. Now you look at it. Maybe you decide that it's too wordy. Maybe you decide that it is stilted or rhythmic in an unrealistic way, but at the time it just felt so fresh that it was. It was so fun to read everything you wrote. This is another one of his. I don't know if you know this one.

510
00:47:42.730 --> 00:47:44.520
Tad Eggleston: Total sellout yes.

511
00:47:45.260 --> 00:47:48.140
Britton Payne: And I'm assuming it's from the same era, and.

512
00:47:48.140 --> 00:47:50.909
Tad Eggleston: Right, for that matter, from a comparable story

513
00:47:50.910 --> 00:47:54.519
Tad Eggleston: that I sometimes get the 2 like.

514
00:47:55.400 --> 00:47:57.499
Tad Eggleston: Actually, I want to say that

515
00:47:57.910 --> 00:48:01.560
Tad Eggleston: that at this point they get collected together.

516
00:48:01.970 --> 00:48:14.518
Britton Payne: That's probably what this this, as I flick through it, it looks like there's some overlap. This is a collection of disparate styles. Art disparate art styles, and they look like smaller stories, so it may not be a straight through narrative.

517
00:48:14.980 --> 00:48:30.080
Britton Payne: but at this point he has done goldfish, fire, jinx and torso, which is in the other one, but also ultimate spider-man, daredevil, and alias. So within a couple of years he had gone from, you know, being a self published person, to having launched ultimate spider-man, which is one of the more influential.

518
00:48:30.080 --> 00:48:30.620
Tad Eggleston: Is actually.

519
00:48:30.620 --> 00:48:31.999
Britton Payne: Comic books of that era.

520
00:48:32.000 --> 00:48:38.104
Tad Eggleston: Completely self-published. He was a really small publisher called Caliber, who was also doing

521
00:48:39.353 --> 00:48:42.570
Tad Eggleston: low life with Ed Brubaker.

522
00:48:42.750 --> 00:48:47.699
Tad Eggleston: And there was one other big creator that came out of that.

523
00:48:51.910 --> 00:49:03.050
Britton Payne: Well, he, I'm looking at the special thanks, and he thanks a bunch of people you don't know. A couple of artists, David Mack, Mark and Draco, who he probably worked with Stanley. Of course, Tim doing. I happen to know who that is. Do you.

524
00:49:03.870 --> 00:49:04.710
Tad Eggleston: Who.

525
00:49:04.940 --> 00:49:06.430
Britton Payne: James Duham.

526
00:49:07.657 --> 00:49:08.592
Tad Eggleston: Isn't that

527
00:49:09.330 --> 00:49:11.100
Britton Payne: It's Mr. Scott from.

528
00:49:11.100 --> 00:49:21.259
Tad Eggleston: Yeah, that's Mr. Scott. But it's funny that you bring up David Mack. David Mack's worth worth bringing up a little bit more here, for 2 reasons. First, st

529
00:49:21.946 --> 00:49:26.859
Tad Eggleston: I mean he Kabuki, was was also a a

530
00:49:28.790 --> 00:49:38.060
Tad Eggleston: thing that came out of that era, and Mac worked alongside with Bendis from early on. But Mac is also neurodivergent.

531
00:49:38.330 --> 00:49:45.649
Britton Payne: Oh, neat! Oh, that's interesting. Well, he must include Kabuki in the book somewhere, because he thanks him for the use of kabuki.

532
00:49:48.230 --> 00:49:55.309
Britton Payne: Yeah. So in any event, I I just remember at the time thinking he was so fresh, and then funny enough, I did not care for ultimate spider-man.

533
00:49:55.920 --> 00:50:00.750
Tad Eggleston: I love ultimate, and is my spider-man.

534
00:50:01.160 --> 00:50:05.270
Britton Payne: Oh, really! Oh, that's so interesting! I tried well, because it's a different spider-man, and.

535
00:50:05.270 --> 00:50:09.609
Tad Eggleston: Well, no, I mean, because to me it's not a different spider-man. It's.

536
00:50:09.840 --> 00:50:16.820
Britton Payne: Like you with. I was saying that that's what's going on in my head, right? I like with Chris where I can appreciate it. I recognize what it does. It just doesn't grab me.

537
00:50:17.280 --> 00:50:23.290
Tad Eggleston: Yeah, for me. It distilled 60 years of spider-man with better writing.

538
00:50:24.290 --> 00:50:24.610
Britton Payne: Yeah.

539
00:50:24.610 --> 00:50:26.139
Tad Eggleston: That Spider-man had had.

540
00:50:26.480 --> 00:50:34.239
Britton Payne: Yeah. Yeah. And that's a hundred percent. True. I can't think of us. I'm trying. I'm like struggling to think of a spider-man run that is meaningful to me. Spider-man Blue is probably

541
00:50:34.979 --> 00:50:45.309
Britton Payne: what comes to mind. And I thought it was so clever that they put what superior spider-man, or whatever. That was where they they put Doc Ock's brain in Spiderman's body. So clever.

542
00:50:45.460 --> 00:50:50.298
Britton Payne: I love the spider-man movies, the cartoon movies. I I really enjoy the live action ones, and for some reason.

543
00:50:50.540 --> 00:51:11.040
Tad Eggleston: Ultimate spider-man, and Miles are my spider-man, and and that's I've always been a spider-man guy, I mean. I also loved like the whole hobgoblin saga when it was coming out, and well, not when it was coming out, because that was mostly before I was reading. But I inherited those comics, so I read them over and over for.

544
00:51:11.040 --> 00:51:11.660
Britton Payne: Hmm.

545
00:51:12.020 --> 00:51:13.060
Tad Eggleston: Ages.

546
00:51:13.360 --> 00:51:16.160
Tad Eggleston: I guess marvel team helps stack of. Yeah.

547
00:51:16.160 --> 00:51:16.670
Britton Payne: Marvel, team.

548
00:51:16.670 --> 00:51:25.360
Tad Eggleston: Marvel team up, man. I was more of a spectacular spider-man than an amazing spider-man. I always felt like those were more Peter Parker stories.

549
00:51:25.540 --> 00:51:27.160
Britton Payne: Yeah. It was called Peter Parker. Spectacular.

550
00:51:27.160 --> 00:51:27.720
Tad Eggleston: Initially.

551
00:51:27.720 --> 00:51:31.610
Britton Payne: And right, and it was, and the stories were a little darker, as I recall, than the.

552
00:51:31.610 --> 00:51:31.970
Tad Eggleston: Sometimes.

553
00:51:31.970 --> 00:51:33.670
Britton Payne: Stories that were in amazing.

554
00:51:33.670 --> 00:51:40.010
Tad Eggleston: I mean, I was like 8 to 14 when I was reading those the most.

555
00:51:40.010 --> 00:51:40.500
Britton Payne: Yeah, me, too.

556
00:51:40.891 --> 00:51:49.109
Tad Eggleston: So I don't know if I was making the differentiation between. Oh, this is dark spider-man, and that's not dark. Spider-man

557
00:51:49.450 --> 00:52:01.310
Tad Eggleston: was more going. It's funny that I know spectacular spider-man, supposedly the secondary title, and I was actually reading ones from like the late seventies early eighties in that time, because I'd gotten a big box.

558
00:52:01.310 --> 00:52:02.659
Britton Payne: Well, those are the Frank millers.

559
00:52:03.636 --> 00:52:06.480
Tad Eggleston: Miller did only a little bit of.

560
00:52:06.480 --> 00:52:09.899
Britton Payne: Yeah, just a couple like spectacular 28 or something like that.

561
00:52:09.900 --> 00:52:10.690
Tad Eggleston: No, he was.

562
00:52:10.690 --> 00:52:11.839
Britton Payne: Coincidentally, I got that.

563
00:52:11.840 --> 00:52:14.819
Tad Eggleston: I love his daredevil.

564
00:52:15.570 --> 00:52:16.090
Britton Payne: No?

565
00:52:16.393 --> 00:52:24.899
Britton Payne: Well, okay. So we have 2 more books on this chunk of shelf, and there's plenty more shelf to go. But let's let's do these 2. So we've.

566
00:52:24.900 --> 00:52:26.019
Tad Eggleston: And I also we got to see.

567
00:52:26.020 --> 00:52:26.360
Britton Payne: And that's.

568
00:52:26.360 --> 00:52:27.639
Tad Eggleston: That you shoved in there because.

569
00:52:27.640 --> 00:52:32.000
Britton Payne: We will. Yeah, let's do those last. And then, yeah, cause you might, I I think it. Maybe those can be

570
00:52:32.000 --> 00:52:37.380
Britton Payne: because so far I haven't had anything that's like jumped at me that I'm going to pick it yet. I'm just telling you now.

571
00:52:37.380 --> 00:52:37.919
Britton Payne: So this is.

572
00:52:37.920 --> 00:52:38.810
Tad Eggleston: Kind of working.

573
00:52:39.260 --> 00:52:51.059
Britton Payne: This is Ted raw to Afghanistan and back. So we've talked about Ted Raw before. He was sort of a village voice type, cartoonist and he does firsthand reportage in

574
00:52:51.730 --> 00:53:04.630
Britton Payne: in Afghanistan. So this is set in roughly. 2,001. It's got an introduction by Bill Mayor Mar Bill Maher. I'm not sure how to say it. His name actually and I have not read this in so many years.

575
00:53:04.970 --> 00:53:08.090
Britton Payne: you know I but he's got a book called 2024.

576
00:53:08.540 --> 00:53:12.469
Britton Payne: So he which he would have written back, you know, 25 years ago.

577
00:53:13.170 --> 00:53:15.070
Britton Payne: But obviously I set it aside because I thought.

578
00:53:15.070 --> 00:53:15.980
Tad Eggleston: That was a book.

579
00:53:18.730 --> 00:53:21.280
Britton Payne: Yeah. Village voice. War reports is

580
00:53:21.410 --> 00:53:31.390
Britton Payne: what his car the content of his cartoons. And then it's also got plenty of pros. Looks like I got part way into I would have bought this not too terribly. Long after 9 11. I was living in New York during 9 11. So

581
00:53:31.999 --> 00:53:40.669
Britton Payne: that was something that you kind of had to decide whether you were going, whether and to what degree you were going to engage in art. About 9 11.

582
00:53:40.670 --> 00:53:44.839
Tad Eggleston: So. So Tom King took the job at the CIA, and you bought a comic book.

583
00:53:45.050 --> 00:54:05.109
Britton Payne: Yes, that's true. Inspiration comes in different forms. But you know I never really got into war books and comics until probably my late twenties, I guess, with facts from Sarajevo that might have been my 1st war book in comics that I particularly cared for. Yeah. And it opened the door for me to be a little bit more open to

584
00:54:05.544 --> 00:54:11.725
Britton Payne: sergeant Rock, when it was handled by somebody pretty serious, unknown soldier had a run that I kind of cared for

585
00:54:12.270 --> 00:54:13.529
Britton Payne: and I guess it's that.

586
00:54:13.530 --> 00:54:15.860
Tad Eggleston: The Joshua Dysart run.

587
00:54:16.350 --> 00:54:21.509
Britton Payne: I'm not gonna remember the name of it. It was. It was really good, but it was very gritty looking. It would have been probably 20 years ago.

588
00:54:21.956 --> 00:54:40.920
Britton Payne: Well, when we get into the other parts of the Cabinet we'll undoubtedly run into unknown soldier. And so I don't. I don't have any recollection of Afghanistan and back other than that, it would have been pretty edgy reporting, and I know edgy is an overused term. But Ted Rawl was a

589
00:54:40.970 --> 00:54:53.320
Britton Payne: was a rabble rouser, you know, and he he was a muckraker, and he's fundamentally liberal, but sometimes he might be liberal and angry at the Liberals because they weren't doing it the way he thought they should so.

590
00:54:53.320 --> 00:54:59.550
Tad Eggleston: And I think we should say is his most recent comic. Came out yesterday.

591
00:54:59.824 --> 00:55:05.319
Britton Payne: So he's obviously still going. I have not read his comics recently, cause I I haven't, you know, been exposed.

592
00:55:05.320 --> 00:55:15.570
Tad Eggleston: He has a comics blog where he's got not quite daily up, but lots.

593
00:55:15.900 --> 00:55:22.799
Britton Payne: That's kind of a tricky thing about the demise of local newspapers, I mean, maybe you still have them in Chicago, but I really feel disconnected from that, you know, when

594
00:55:22.960 --> 00:55:30.069
Britton Payne: things like the village voice that were just, you'd walk around the street. They were there for free on a on a in a news box, and you could just you could grab them. And

595
00:55:30.540 --> 00:55:45.082
Britton Payne: they had enough of the stuff that the Internet now does, that you kind of needed them. You know you. If you were looking for new apartment, you need to get it. If you were looking to see what shows were playing, you'd need to get that and now that those things aren't there, it's sort of there are fewer opportunities to be

596
00:55:45.440 --> 00:55:49.730
Britton Payne: incidentally exposed to things like a weekly comic you have to now.

597
00:55:49.730 --> 00:55:50.050
Tad Eggleston: Oh!

598
00:55:50.050 --> 00:55:50.629
Britton Payne: Seek it out.

599
00:55:50.630 --> 00:55:54.289
Tad Eggleston: Also recently did 2024 revisited.

600
00:55:54.730 --> 00:56:00.079
Britton Payne: Oh, interesting! Well, I don't know what 2024 is, and but I'd be curious to see what the difference is between the 2.

601
00:56:00.360 --> 00:56:01.020
Tad Eggleston: Yeah.

602
00:56:01.630 --> 00:56:04.979
Britton Payne: I'm just. I'm just flying through his. His.

603
00:56:05.190 --> 00:56:08.869
Tad Eggleston: raw.com is where you can find Ted Rawl

604
00:56:09.150 --> 00:56:11.190
Tad Eggleston: looks like he did a Bernie Sanders.

605
00:56:17.050 --> 00:56:18.400
Tad Eggleston: biography, too.

606
00:56:19.020 --> 00:56:20.269
Britton Payne: No, that tracks.

607
00:56:20.430 --> 00:56:28.530
Britton Payne: Alright. This is the last book and I'll tell you what the other 3 are, too. We'll sort of as like a as a as a curtain call paul Chapman's concrete.

608
00:56:28.530 --> 00:56:29.220
Tad Eggleston: Great, awesome.

609
00:56:29.220 --> 00:56:32.070
Britton Payne: This is Volume 6. So this is one of those comics where, like

610
00:56:32.960 --> 00:57:02.140
Britton Payne: maybe 25 years ago, somebody put out a list of 100 comic books that you need to read, and they were all they were all compilations. None of them was a floppy. They were all, you know collections or long graphic novels. And so, you know, I printed it out super small, so that it fit my wallet, and I would sort of check off books as I read them. About half, maybe more. I'm remembering back again 25 years, about half. I'd probably already read. So then I had this other half that I got to go out and buy and read, and this is, you know, a time when I had more time.

611
00:57:02.140 --> 00:57:17.400
Tad Eggleston: Literally I would be. I would be fascinated to find out if it's the same list. But that's how my friend Andy, who's you've probably heard once or twice on the podcast because you've listened to enough of them at this point. Got back into comics, was.

612
00:57:17.400 --> 00:57:21.580
Tad Eggleston: Oh, wow. With like A, he'd he'd he'd been out for a while.

613
00:57:22.550 --> 00:57:23.349
Britton Payne: If he is.

614
00:57:23.350 --> 00:57:27.939
Tad Eggleston: Across a list and and just decided to go through it.

615
00:57:28.110 --> 00:57:31.919
Britton Payne: If he's 10 ish years younger than me, then that could be the list. I I was out.

616
00:57:32.430 --> 00:57:33.190
Britton Payne: 86 to.

617
00:57:33.190 --> 00:57:41.080
Tad Eggleston: No, actually, he is probably 10 ish years older than you.

618
00:57:41.080 --> 00:57:42.540
Britton Payne: Well, then, it could. Maybe it's the same list.

619
00:57:42.540 --> 00:57:44.589
Tad Eggleston: Well, no, actually, he's he's.

620
00:57:45.170 --> 00:57:47.900
Britton Payne: I don't know I'm 54, so so he's whatever.

621
00:57:47.900 --> 00:57:50.670
Tad Eggleston: Probably 4 or 5 years older than you.

622
00:57:50.670 --> 00:57:53.120
Britton Payne: Alright. Well, it could have been the same. Yes, and and it probably was.

623
00:57:53.120 --> 00:57:57.640
Tad Eggleston: Cause. I remember when he he turned 50 in 2017,

624
00:57:58.720 --> 00:58:11.350
Tad Eggleston: I think I remember. I remember it turned out that that his neighbors had come in and bought his 50th birthday present from me, but I didn't know who I was helping them shop for, but I still managed to do a great job.

625
00:58:11.816 --> 00:58:30.249
Britton Payne: Well, it was a cool list, and and you know, obviously it wasn't perfect, and there were things on it that I tried that I didn't particularly care for, but I remember the concrete was one of them that somehow it it wasn't. It was neither fish nor fowl. It didn't look like a superhero comic, and it didn't look like an Indie comic, and somehow I just it just fell under my. It fell through the cracks.

626
00:58:30.250 --> 00:58:31.799
Tad Eggleston: Just a little bit of concrete.

627
00:58:31.800 --> 00:58:33.260
Britton Payne: Me too.

628
00:58:33.260 --> 00:58:36.370
Tad Eggleston: But never read a whole volume.

629
00:58:36.370 --> 00:58:37.350
Britton Payne: Yeah, I, I.

630
00:58:37.350 --> 00:58:41.699
Tad Eggleston: That was one volume. I would have read it a long time ago, and it's.

631
00:58:41.840 --> 00:58:45.529
Britton Payne: Beautiful. I mean, it is a beautifully rendered book.

632
00:58:46.830 --> 00:58:56.839
Britton Payne: Oh, it's funny, even just looking at this makes me want to kinda dig that out again and see, I guess, at some level. Now, when I read comics that are old, and that I either loved or didn't catch. This is from 2,006.

633
00:58:58.180 --> 00:59:07.939
Britton Payne: it's sort of to see. Oh, how did that survive? You know how? How well does that do? I, I was listening to a different podcast and just get there.

634
00:59:07.940 --> 00:59:09.140
Tad Eggleston: To other podcasts.

635
00:59:09.140 --> 00:59:10.220
Britton Payne: So many podcasts.

636
00:59:10.220 --> 00:59:11.590
Tad Eggleston: I'm crushed. Man.

637
00:59:11.590 --> 00:59:20.499
Britton Payne: This was with my old improv teacher, Will Hines and his brother Kevin, and they had on Chris Gethard to talk about watchmen, and they, and it was sort of a meandering conversation. But they got to this point where

638
00:59:20.500 --> 00:59:45.489
Britton Payne: Chris Gethard said, for some reason, if I found that I was going to die in 24 h. Which comic books would I read? Now, bear in mind, he's married and has kids, you know, and so he's imagining he's got 24 h to live, and what he's thinking about is which comic books he wants to read. But whatever it was, kind of an interesting test, and it did make me think like I didn't get through much of a long list, or I'm not going to spend all 24 h. But what would be the last comic book I would like to read before I say my

639
00:59:45.490 --> 00:59:46.559
Britton Payne: final goodbye.

640
00:59:46.560 --> 01:00:03.720
Britton Payne: and it would be Justice League 200, and it made me think. I wonder. Maybe I won't read it until my last day, if I happen to know what my last day is, just to save that feeling, because it'll take me back to when I was 10, and it was at the time considered the greatest comic book of all time for people of a very specific age.

641
01:00:04.050 --> 01:00:09.339
Britton Payne: Justice, the Justice League 200. It was a it was a story that had

642
01:00:09.670 --> 01:00:34.249
Britton Payne: probably Jerry Conway wrote the spine, and then each individual chapter had a different, at least art team, and it might have had a different writing team. So one chapter was Jim Aparo, and one chapter was George Perez, and the wraparound cover was George Perez. And you know the names. That would have been a big deal around 1980, and it just was one of those books that was. It was square bound, but it was still on newsprint, and it had this beautiful wraparound cover. By George, Perez, and all these great artists.

643
01:00:34.250 --> 01:00:43.860
Tad Eggleston: Jerry Conway, George Perez, Pat Broderick, Jim Aparo, Dick Giordano, Gil Kane, Carmine, Infantino, Brian Boland, and Joe Hubert.

644
01:00:44.290 --> 01:00:50.690
Tad Eggleston: with Inc. From Brett Breeding Terry Austin, Jim Aparo, yeah, and so

645
01:00:50.880 --> 01:00:52.479
Tad Eggleston: cheered on alcohol. Can Frank? Yeah.

646
01:00:52.480 --> 01:00:52.890
Britton Payne: I'll bet it.

647
01:00:52.890 --> 01:00:53.530
Britton Payne: Yeah.

648
01:00:53.530 --> 01:01:15.109
Britton Payne: you read it now. It feels clunky. It doesn't age that. Well, it's certainly not a very sophisticated story, but I'll bet in that moment it might be nice to feel like I'm 10 years old again, you know, so, anyway, that I don't remember exactly how we got to that. But when I now oh, yeah, now, when I read books, when I read old books, sometimes I'm curious to see. Oh, how did that age, you know zot aged, I think, extraordinarily well. There are a couple of things that

649
01:01:15.110 --> 01:01:25.099
Britton Payne: that didn't. You know that that don't feel very modern, but by and large it it was a stylized book, and I thought that Aged really, well, and I, you know, I'd look at concrete. And I'm like, Okay.

650
01:01:25.100 --> 01:01:29.880
Britton Payne: if I were reading that Scott Scott Mcleod is is a genius, so

651
01:01:29.880 --> 01:01:33.519
Britton Payne: he is. But there are lots of geniuses who wrote works that were very much of their time.

652
01:01:33.830 --> 01:01:34.460
Tad Eggleston: Yeah.

653
01:01:35.140 --> 01:01:45.340
Britton Payne: And then change their style over the years. So, okay, well, that was, that's the the main, the bulk of of the the Cabinet. What if that is so fun for me to just revisit some of these books because.

654
01:01:45.340 --> 01:01:46.080
Tad Eggleston: Yeah.

655
01:01:46.410 --> 01:01:51.529
Britton Payne: I do adore these Chris Ware books, but I they come out so infrequently. I don't get a chance to to.

656
01:01:51.530 --> 01:01:52.290
Tad Eggleston: New, one.

657
01:01:52.780 --> 01:01:55.069
Britton Payne: I. As far as I know, I have all of his books.

658
01:01:55.260 --> 01:01:55.770
Tad Eggleston: I mean one.

659
01:01:55.770 --> 01:01:58.820
Britton Payne: If I remember it, says Volume 3 of the.

660
01:01:58.820 --> 01:02:02.160
Tad Eggleston: The Acme Novelty Library, date.

661
01:02:02.160 --> 01:02:30.480
Britton Payne: Yeah, it's a date book. I don't love the date books as much. They. They talk about non narrative, you know. They they are to the extent that they have a story. It's in a different form that is trickier for me to follow. And so, though of his books, those are the ones that I tend to struggle with the most. I love them if they are supplemental material where it's like, oh, you finished the thing. Now let's just take a peek behind the scenes. But to read it in and of itself. To me isn't, isn't why I go to Chris Ware

662
01:02:30.650 --> 01:02:31.450
Britton Payne: Alright.

663
01:02:31.830 --> 01:02:36.899
Tad Eggleston: It's the newest release and the 1st one in like 15 years. So it's been, you know.

664
01:02:36.900 --> 01:02:42.079
Britton Payne: It's not. It wouldn't be quite 15, but it'd be. It's maybe 6 or 7, you know. The last one should have been building stories.

665
01:02:42.080 --> 01:02:42.820
Tad Eggleston: Been a while.

666
01:02:42.820 --> 01:02:50.770
Britton Payne: Which was a brilliant book, but it was like 6 books in one. So you got your money's worth out of that. Okay, the 3 books that I learned about on.

667
01:02:50.970 --> 01:02:56.059
Britton Payne: I think, for the Harvey awards. Something, kid called something called Class Act, from the writer.

668
01:02:56.060 --> 01:02:56.450
Tad Eggleston: Oh!

669
01:02:56.450 --> 01:02:56.840
Britton Payne: Good.

670
01:02:57.180 --> 01:03:02.452
Tad Eggleston: I had Jerry Kraft on. I met Jerry Kraft at

671
01:03:03.350 --> 01:03:16.017
Tad Eggleston: at commas crossovers this year. He's a great guy, and I love all through Class Act is the second volume of the New Kid Trilogy. The 3rd is

672
01:03:16.980 --> 01:03:18.030
Tad Eggleston: school trip.

673
01:03:18.720 --> 01:03:19.789
Britton Payne: Oh, so there are 3 books now.

674
01:03:19.790 --> 01:03:21.790
Tad Eggleston: All. They're all fantastic.

675
01:03:22.080 --> 01:03:27.150
Britton Payne: Oh, okay, good. Well, I have to, you know, kind of glance through just because I I wanna make sure it's age appropriate for my for my number.

676
01:03:27.150 --> 01:03:27.880
Tad Eggleston: It is.

677
01:03:28.210 --> 01:03:36.340
Britton Payne: She, may I? I kind of feel like she might already have new kid, and I've already read it, but I just haven't had time to like. Sit and figure that out. Front. Frontera is another one.

678
01:03:37.160 --> 01:03:39.809
Tad Eggleston: That's Julio Anta.

679
01:03:40.300 --> 01:03:40.859
Tad Eggleston: I love.

680
01:03:40.860 --> 01:03:49.149
Britton Payne: Julio Anta and Jacoby solicito and it is, it seems, to be sort of roughly set in border crossing. Yes.

681
01:03:49.320 --> 01:03:52.000
Britton Payne: I don't know whether it's modern or or it's old, but there's.

682
01:03:52.000 --> 01:03:52.670
Tad Eggleston: Yes, it is.

683
01:03:53.020 --> 01:03:54.019
Britton Payne: And it looks really cool.

684
01:03:54.020 --> 01:03:55.029
Tad Eggleston: It is modern.

685
01:03:55.610 --> 01:03:56.529
Britton Payne: It's it is one of those.

686
01:03:56.530 --> 01:04:02.170
Tad Eggleston: I had. I had a great conversation with him as well, including about Frontera.

687
01:04:02.640 --> 01:04:07.830
Britton Payne: And that's why I don't. These things like I don't just want to throw them at my daughter. I want to be able to have a meaningful conversation.

688
01:04:07.830 --> 01:04:11.749
Tad Eggleston: Oh, no! Things like that. They're definitely ones that you want to be able to. I mean, because they deal with.

689
01:04:11.750 --> 01:04:12.220
Britton Payne: Yeah.

690
01:04:12.220 --> 01:04:17.700
Tad Eggleston: Very real world issues that are particularly real world right now. But we're also Brando!

691
01:04:17.700 --> 01:04:18.940
Tad Eggleston: Important right now.

692
01:04:18.940 --> 01:04:25.090
Britton Payne: Yeah, she can handle that. But I also want to make sure that I'm prepared and the 3rd one is

693
01:04:25.370 --> 01:04:26.689
Tad Eggleston: Worth reading with her.

694
01:04:27.690 --> 01:04:28.410
Britton Payne: Button, pusher.

695
01:04:28.410 --> 01:04:29.929
Tad Eggleston: Read that one yet. Button, pusher.

696
01:04:29.930 --> 01:04:57.610
Britton Payne: Okay, so it's button pusher. By Tyler Page. Tyler's brain is different. You see where this is going. He has a hard time paying attention. He acts out in goofy, unpredictable, immature, and sometimes dangerous ways. Nobody, including Tyler himself, understands why he does these things until his doctor diagnoses him with Adhd. But the label is only the start of Tyler's journey between managing his medications, controlling his impulses and dealing with his parents. Fighting Tyler's preteen years are full of challenges, the biggest of all, understanding how his race car brain is part of who he is.

697
01:04:57.610 --> 01:05:07.270
Britton Payne: So you can see why that'd be a great book for any kid, but especially my daughter, to read. But again, I feel like I should be aware of what it is and what it says, and.

698
01:05:07.630 --> 01:05:08.270
Tad Eggleston: Yeah.

699
01:05:08.270 --> 01:05:10.999
Britton Payne: Before. I just kinda push it to it.

700
01:05:11.160 --> 01:05:17.740
Britton Payne: you know, broadly, I try to read things before my daughter does, especially the graphic novels, but she's a voracious reader, and I can't keep up.

701
01:05:18.240 --> 01:05:30.280
Tad Eggleston: Definitely. It's definitely not a bad idea. I would argue that if you're even just willing to catch up when she says she wants to talk about it. You're doing a great job, though.

702
01:05:31.070 --> 01:05:42.079
Britton Payne: Yeah, yeah. I mean, you know, there are some. There are some books where I don't feel compelled to do that. If it's Raina Telgemeyer, or some not enough. I forget who the author is for her. Not enough book.

703
01:05:42.080 --> 01:05:42.630
Tad Eggleston: Oh! But.

704
01:05:42.630 --> 01:05:43.019
Britton Payne: I've seen.

705
01:05:43.020 --> 01:05:50.410
Tad Eggleston: You hear that Raina Telgemeyer leads to to chronic masturbation? That was that was the thing in the

706
01:05:50.600 --> 01:06:03.420
Tad Eggleston: the the School Board meeting that that the the woman stood up and and talked about, and and it had nothing to do with the fact that she was a Pr. Person for the the

707
01:06:03.650 --> 01:06:10.390
Tad Eggleston: Christian version of Scholastic Book fair. No, no, that didn't drive her to want

708
01:06:10.750 --> 01:06:13.899
Tad Eggleston: a major scholastic book to be banned.

709
01:06:14.400 --> 01:06:16.250
Tad Eggleston: It turns out I'm I'm not awesome.

710
01:06:16.250 --> 01:06:17.250
Britton Payne: Concerned about what that.

711
01:06:17.250 --> 01:06:18.040
Tad Eggleston: Themselves.

712
01:06:18.040 --> 01:06:40.400
Britton Payne: When it comes to my daughter's reading habits. But I do try to be, you know that's what trademark is, and that's what branding is. And if you see certain names on a book, and it's got a certain design, you can have an understanding of yeah, whether it's whether it's age appropriate. But those books I simply bought because they got nominated for an award this year at the Harvey's, and or I I think it's the Harvey's and

713
01:06:40.990 --> 01:06:51.300
Britton Payne: And then I they got here, and I re, I kind of flicked through them and was like, I should probably look at these because I really was just buying them because they got nominated, not because they were recommended by somebody who had read them and knew me and my kid.

714
01:06:52.040 --> 01:06:58.120
Tad Eggleston: Well, I don't know your kid. I know you. I will. I will speak for both class.

715
01:06:58.120 --> 01:06:59.600
Britton Payne: I have a feeling. I have a feeling. Class X.

716
01:06:59.600 --> 01:07:00.710
Tad Eggleston: Frontera pretty.

717
01:07:00.710 --> 01:07:01.099
Britton Payne: Just fine.

718
01:07:01.100 --> 01:07:05.299
Tad Eggleston: Seriously, yeah, yeah, I worry about Fronter.

719
01:07:05.300 --> 01:07:05.670
Britton Payne: The top.

720
01:07:05.670 --> 01:07:14.469
Tad Eggleston: No, you you should, and for that matter, the reason that I had him on. And this this is a book that that he had

721
01:07:14.590 --> 01:07:17.099
Tad Eggleston: come out this year as well.

722
01:07:18.002 --> 01:07:21.050
Tad Eggleston: He did sisue prera

723
01:07:22.990 --> 01:07:35.440
Tad Eggleston: The Latino heroes who changed the United States, which is a nonfiction book of a collection of like biographical

724
01:07:36.100 --> 01:07:45.450
Tad Eggleston: shorts about various Latino people throughout Us. History and the things that they did for us.

725
01:07:46.218 --> 01:07:48.359
Tad Eggleston: That was really really fantastic.

726
01:07:48.360 --> 01:07:49.270
Britton Payne: Well, that's cool.

727
01:07:49.490 --> 01:07:57.262
Britton Payne: Well, so from here here's my recommendation. Neither of us seems to be that familiar with concrete. So maybe we should revisit that

728
01:07:57.600 --> 01:07:58.190
Tad Eggleston: Okay.

729
01:07:58.190 --> 01:08:16.659
Britton Payne: That's so. I have Volume 6 in print. But if there's a digital version, you know, if maybe maybe you want to do a little research. You may not want to do research, but if you do, we could figure out what's the best concrete for beginners, and then read that. So we could either do volume 6 because I have it, or we could go find out what's the best thing to start with.

730
01:08:17.660 --> 01:08:28.129
Tad Eggleston: I mean, I often start at the beginning. But but yeah, no, I can. I I can. I can figure that out probably pretty quickly, even. But yeah.

731
01:08:28.130 --> 01:08:31.519
Britton Payne: One of those things where he didn't hit his stride until Volume 3 or something.

732
01:08:34.689 --> 01:08:42.939
Tad Eggleston: It looks like there's even at this point, for 2495, a complete concrete.

733
01:08:44.160 --> 01:08:49.550
Tad Eggleston: And not even at this point it came out in 1994,

734
01:08:49.550 --> 01:08:54.674
Britton Payne: Well, since my book was 2,006 complete might have been 2 issues.

735
01:08:55.040 --> 01:08:57.210
Tad Eggleston: No, it's 320 pages.

736
01:08:57.210 --> 01:08:58.640
Britton Payne: Oh, really! Oh, wow!

737
01:08:58.649 --> 01:08:59.069
Tad Eggleston: Yeah.

738
01:08:59.069 --> 01:08:59.439
Britton Payne: Fine.

739
01:08:59.439 --> 01:09:02.019
Tad Eggleston: No, this concrete goes back.

740
01:09:02.390 --> 01:09:04.259
Britton Payne: Oh, yeah, I didn't realize it went back that far. That's great.

741
01:09:04.260 --> 01:09:08.809
Tad Eggleston: It was a 10 issue series. I mean, I think yours is technically an issue.

742
01:09:09.890 --> 01:09:10.750
Britton Payne: Oh, really. Okay.

743
01:09:10.750 --> 01:09:12.259
Tad Eggleston: An issue reprint.

744
01:09:14.670 --> 01:09:17.269
Tad Eggleston: Cause it was. It was a weird series.

745
01:09:17.620 --> 01:09:18.010
Britton Payne: But once.

746
01:09:18.010 --> 01:09:18.719
Tad Eggleston: I think I remember.

747
01:09:18.729 --> 01:09:19.319
Britton Payne: Create.

748
01:09:19.609 --> 01:09:20.919
Tad Eggleston: Yeah, we'll figure that out.

749
01:09:20.920 --> 01:09:24.100
Britton Payne: Yeah, do your best not to do a phone book, because I won't be able to read the whole thing, probably. But.

750
01:09:24.100 --> 01:09:26.040
Tad Eggleston: You don't want to read a phone.

751
01:09:26.040 --> 01:09:30.422
Britton Payne: Of course I do. I just don't have I. I know my life.

752
01:09:30.979 --> 01:09:41.350
Tad Eggleston: See, you need to learn how to make it look like you're paying attention in business meetings when you're really reading comics on your phone.

753
01:09:42.040 --> 01:09:48.530
Britton Payne: That ship has long since sailed. I've mastered that skill. It's the

754
01:09:48.720 --> 01:09:53.220
Britton Payne: the other things. Life is full right now. I'm I'm lucky in certain ways. Life is full.

755
01:09:53.729 --> 01:09:58.529
Tad Eggleston: Okay? So yeah, we, we will definitely do some, some concrete

756
01:10:02.459 --> 01:10:09.019
Tad Eggleston: and and I'll not make it the, the, the complete 300.

757
01:10:09.020 --> 01:10:11.620
Britton Payne: You can quickly complete. Yeah, yeah.

758
01:10:11.620 --> 01:10:19.289
Tad Eggleston: Because you will almost certainly not get through it all, particularly when I start reading it and decide to pair it with something else.

759
01:10:21.420 --> 01:10:22.590
Tad Eggleston: Yes,

760
01:10:25.220 --> 01:10:39.629
Tad Eggleston: I will. I'm going to give another toss out to you, though, whether you read the whole thing or not. I mean, I'm in Chapter 11 of neuro tribes right now, where? Where the the script kind of

761
01:10:40.150 --> 01:10:46.020
Tad Eggleston: not quite flips, but but definitely takes a turn as as autistic adults start

762
01:10:46.320 --> 01:10:52.900
Tad Eggleston: advocating for themselves rather than just the parents and the psychologists and whatnot.

763
01:10:53.712 --> 01:11:07.880
Tad Eggleston: I think I sent you a quote from from one of the early early conferences, because not long before that one of the big things had been parents you could. One of the things you have to do is you have to mourn the child that you wish that you had, and

764
01:11:09.080 --> 01:11:19.869
Tad Eggleston: the guy just like was irked by that, and he acknowledged, yes, you need it, but you also need to remember that the child you have is pretty amazing. So like, mourn what you lost. Get over it.

765
01:11:20.060 --> 01:11:27.609
Tad Eggleston: Start taking care of the child that you have. Don't focus on how to make them. The child that you don't have.

766
01:11:27.980 --> 01:11:29.089
Britton Payne: Yep. Totally true.

767
01:11:29.090 --> 01:11:35.289
Tad Eggleston: Focus on finding a way to help them navigate this world and or remake this world

768
01:11:35.460 --> 01:11:37.220
Tad Eggleston: to not be so hard on them.

769
01:11:41.260 --> 01:11:47.440
Tad Eggleston: So that chapter's been really spectacularly inspiring to me. So if.

770
01:11:47.440 --> 01:11:48.269
Britton Payne: Yeah, I'll try to get to that.

771
01:11:48.270 --> 01:11:49.960
Tad Eggleston: Ever pick it up, and just.

772
01:11:50.170 --> 01:11:52.359
Britton Payne: Feel like jumping to. Chapter 11.

773
01:11:53.720 --> 01:11:55.080
Tad Eggleston: That that would work.

774
01:11:55.480 --> 01:12:02.189
Tad Eggleston: because that really seems to be kind of the rift between. Is this a disorder, or is this.

775
01:12:02.820 --> 01:12:17.830
Tad Eggleston: you know one of the analogies tossed out is people we don't talk about people having left-handed disorder. Yeah, it makes their lives harder sometimes, because things are very much built for right-handers, but they're just a left-handed person, not a person with left-handed disorder.

776
01:12:18.150 --> 01:12:38.651
Tad Eggleston: And obviously, you know, there there are parts of the spectrum that that come with more issues than others. But but it seems like the the adult autistic community is is has been made. And I need to. I need to learn more about this, because I haven't.

777
01:12:39.280 --> 01:12:41.620
Tad Eggleston: is making a harder push, for

778
01:12:42.080 --> 01:12:45.740
Tad Eggleston: let's focus on our strengths and then figure out.

779
01:12:45.990 --> 01:13:01.659
Tad Eggleston: you know, and hey, crazy idea. And and then, like they took it from history. You know. What? When did things for deaf people start getting a lot better when the deaf people started being on the boards talking about how to make things better for deaf people.

780
01:13:01.660 --> 01:13:05.399
Britton Payne: Yeah. Wasn't there a whole thing about the 1st deaf President of God at University.

781
01:13:05.640 --> 01:13:06.410
Tad Eggleston: Right.

782
01:13:06.790 --> 01:13:10.530
Britton Payne: And it's like, Wait a minute. They're they're they weren't always deaf, like what.

783
01:13:10.530 --> 01:13:11.970
Tad Eggleston: Right? Right?

784
01:13:12.881 --> 01:13:24.490
Tad Eggleston: You know, and for that matter, and I have to go find this. Apparently they at 1 point, and I hope it's still up. They threw up a website where they described neurotypical disorder.

785
01:13:24.640 --> 01:13:26.430
Tad Eggleston: So they took neurotypical.

786
01:13:26.430 --> 01:13:30.210
Tad Eggleston: Oh, funny, yeah, and wrote it up like it was a disorder.

787
01:13:30.920 --> 01:13:34.031
Britton Payne: Yeah, alright. So it is time for me.

788
01:13:34.420 --> 01:13:35.630
Tad Eggleston: Time for you to go.

789
01:13:35.630 --> 01:13:36.840
Britton Payne: Yeah, let me just remind you.

790
01:13:36.840 --> 01:13:51.160
Tad Eggleston: Tapped on to our for those listening. I hope you enjoyed both our Cabinet conversation and our discussion of speak up and and Superman up or no, not speak up, and 4 kids walk into a bank.

791
01:13:52.460 --> 01:13:54.660
Tad Eggleston: Which will record one of these days.

792
01:13:54.780 --> 01:14:01.080
Tad Eggleston: Let me know when you're free. I don't know what time your kids go to bed. You know you're 2 h before me, so like

793
01:14:01.200 --> 01:14:07.990
Tad Eggleston: evenings sometimes work, too. I don't know when you go to bed. Maybe maybe you get the kids to bed and you just crash. So I have no idea

794
01:14:09.830 --> 01:14:14.459
Tad Eggleston: but have a great rest of your weekend. Go edit some more video, and

795
01:14:14.660 --> 01:14:19.339
Tad Eggleston: for 22 panels in Britt's Cabinet we will see you after the next page.