22 Panels & Psychocomicology Present: Visionaries & Inquiries Book Club

Tad & Edgar, Sam, and Lee from Psychocomicology discuss Tom King's first series Grayson volumes 1-3.

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Transcript

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Tad Eggleston: Thing.

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Tad Eggleston: Good evening, everybody. Welcome back to 22 panels, and this will be our 1st episode of

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Tad Eggleston: a book club that we've got. At least.

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Tad Eggleston: I think a year year and a half lined up of reading already.

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Tad Eggleston: But that's it.

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Tad Eggleston: and unfortunately, unfortunately, or fortunately, Tom King's also pretty prolific. So by the time by the time we get to the end of the current reading list, God knows how much more he'll have written.

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Dr. Edgar Ramos: There'll be a whole new reading list by the time we get to the.

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Tad Eggleston: Right.

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Tad Eggleston: So I proposed this idea to psychocomicology, and I was so happy that they jumped all over it.

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Tad Eggleston: I have. I have Dr. Edgar Ramos, Larry Lee Woods and Samantha Chavez. You guys can give your specific credentials if you like, but they're psychocomicology. And and we're going to look at the works of Tom King. But we're going to specifically pay attention to

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Tad Eggleston: both the mental health aspects and the the ways that they they can

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Tad Eggleston: be helpful to the reader.

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Tad Eggleston: that that might be going through

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Tad Eggleston: something similar enough that being able to see Superman go through it or Batman go through it can can be valuable. And as I read Grayson, Volume one, through 3, which is what we're talking about tonight, I went. Oh, we're starting with

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Tad Eggleston: the Tom King that has the least feelings.

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Tad Eggleston: It does still have some. But he but he hadn't like

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Tad Eggleston: become the totally Tom King. All the feels Guy, yet.

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Samantha: He was still playing it safe.

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Tad Eggleston: Right well, and he was co-writing with Tim Seeley, and he was learning how to write comics. And I've talked to Tom a couple of times about that, and he he credits Tim

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Tad Eggleston: like hugely with with teaching him how to write comics.

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Tad Eggleston: Tim has said, I mean, I showed him where to put the commas.

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Tad Eggleston: but but I think he was being, you know, and.

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Dr. Edgar Ramos: I guess that's a question I had. Is that.

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Tad Eggleston: Being pretty, humble.

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Dr. Edgar Ramos: Where did Tim Seeley like? Did

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Dr. Edgar Ramos: like? How and where was it separated in in the, in the book, like.

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Tad Eggleston: What it was is they plotted together.

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Dr. Edgar Ramos: But it was a shared story.

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Tad Eggleston: Yeah, they plotted. They did all the plotting together, and what whoever it says is the writer is the one who.

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Dr. Edgar Ramos: Mainly.

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Tad Eggleston: Most responsible for the script of that issue.

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Tad Eggleston: Gosh!

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Larry Woods: Yeah, I was curious about that, too, because I was looking at it pretty intently regarding Tom King. I'm like, okay, plot. Okay. We know, we got spy stuff coming up so like Tim. Silly being like the experience sort of comic book writer, I'm like, Okay, well, where does Tom come in here. And then when I started reading Tom's actual issues where he's credited as a writer, I was like, Oh.

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Larry Woods: okay.

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Samantha: Yeah.

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Larry Woods: In somewhere.

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Samantha: It's interesting, because, like, when you get used to Tom's style of writing, you see his writing like within it, where, like he peeks out a part of the story like, Oh, this is definitely like, this is definitely Tom. Like, yeah, he's definitely writing this part.

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Samantha: so you can.

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Samantha: The parts back at Gotham.

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Samantha: Yeah.

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Tad Eggleston: Felt very. Tom.

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Samantha: Yeah.

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Dr. Edgar Ramos: Or on the phone with Batman was, it felt, very.

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Tad Eggleston: On the phone with Batman generally felt very. Tom.

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Dr. Edgar Ramos: Very right in there.

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Tad Eggleston: For that matter, relationships with both the matron and number 8.

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Samantha: Yeah.

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Dr. Edgar Ramos: Felt like they had.

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Dr. Edgar Ramos: So I mean, we saw, felt like.

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Tad Eggleston: They had Tom's fingerprints on them. I'm not saying that Tim doesn't do that stuff, too. He does some, I mean, hack slash the relationship between

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Tad Eggleston: Cassie and Vlad is is real and fleshed out over time, but it's fleshed out over a lot more time, with a lot more hacking and slashing in between the relationship stuff, whereas whereas Tom tends to do relationships and throw in a page or 2 of action is what it feels like and or like.

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Tad Eggleston: you know, I was just talking about him in an interview earlier today.

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Tad Eggleston: my, one of my favorite TV writers is Aaron Sorkin, and and like he's known for the walk and talk, and I feel like Tom has has mastered the swing and talk.

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Tad Eggleston: You know whether whether it's Batman and Robin, or batman and catwoman, or supergirl, and the the little girl, or

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Tad Eggleston: human target and ice, you know.

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Samantha: Here, we're doing this stuff. But we're also having a serious conversation with each other. Yeah, yeah.

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Dr. Edgar Ramos: You know, what was interesting to me is why, the just focus on the relation relationship stuff right now is.

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Dr. Edgar Ramos: I got to see, you know, and I'm going to stay away from other Dick jokes. By the way.

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Tad Eggleston: But we put parental advisors on our podcast.

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Tad Eggleston: You don't have to.

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Tad Eggleston: I mean, your wife is here, but.

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Samantha: I'm I'm here. It's okay.

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Tad Eggleston: Can handle it. We can handle it.

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Dr. Edgar Ramos: Well, I got to see Dick in a new light. Let's just say.

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Tad Eggleston: Yeah.

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Dr. Edgar Ramos: No, I was really enjoying, like like the suave, debonair side that he had. And it was funny because the intensity of the relationship I was like. That's Tom talking, but then the like, the giddiness of the relationship where the girls are swooning over Dick and all that no pun intended. I was like, that doesn't sound like Tom, that.

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Dr. Edgar Ramos: Yeah, that that felt more Sealy.

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Dr. Edgar Ramos: that I'm like that was felt like a little bit more like that has to be.

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Tad Eggleston: Naming his cheeks.

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Dr. Edgar Ramos: Yeah, I'm like, I'm like that just doesn't so. But I guess the beauty of it was how well it was integrated like you saw, like the swooning and the the childlike, you know, relationship. Not that it's a bad thing, just the childness of a relationship and the giddiness of a relationship, and then the deepness of the emotionality between a relationship. So you almost got to see the whole picture in one little, you know, one little caption, you know, from child child way of looking at, you know, relationships to an adult way of looking at relationships. So it was.

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Dr. Edgar Ramos: It was beautifully integrated. I'll say that it was beautifully integrated. But you can definitely see the difference, the contrast you know of him. And that's what I thought was really good, because then it it attracted me more to Dick in in the sense that I'm like, Wow, this guy. He's

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Dr. Edgar Ramos: like he's a passionate, you know, compassionate like. Just has a fire within him. I'm like, Wow, like you really relate to him relationally like, wow! He just seems like so.

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Tad Eggleston: It. Actually, it's the 1st time I read Grayson was the 1st time I went. You know what I need to pay more attention to nightwing books. I don't know if I'm going to become a regular nightwing reader.

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Tad Eggleston: but

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Tad Eggleston: you know the way this reads, I don't feel like they're making it up from whole cloth. I feel like they have favorite nightwing books that fed into it. So that means that there are certainly good books in the, you know before it that are probably worth reading, and if they can do this, then they're going to set the standard for people coming after. I haven't read all of Tom Taylor's Run, but like I've read parts of it, and like

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Tad Eggleston: you can see that, like Dick, has really come into his own

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Tad Eggleston: rather than just being the the bat sidekick.

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Samantha: The boy wonder? It's it's cool like seeing, because I read a lot of the new 52 stuff. And so like reading, injustice and everything his character has like really come. Far from being like.

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Samantha: you know, Robin, like he, he's come a really long way into where, like he does his app. He has his own personality. He he has the swabbiness of

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Samantha: Bruce Wayne.

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Samantha: but not as much as the trauma of Batman, so he's he's almost what. I wonder, you know Bruce Wayne could have been if he had his own batman to guide him.

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Tad Eggleston: Right. I mean, that's always been something that that I've been

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Tad Eggleston: that I found fascinating about Dick Grayson, to begin with, is that

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Tad Eggleston: somehow, because he had Batman, the guy who never got over

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Tad Eggleston: his parents being murdered in front of him, he

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Tad Eggleston: was able to get over. I mean, get over is not the right word. You never get over. I'm certain you guys will be the 1st ones to say he was able to better better healthily process.

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Larry Woods: Not sure.

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Tad Eggleston: His his parent. You know the processing that Batman still hasn't done.

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Samantha: Yeah, yeah, well, like, think about it. I mean.

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Tad Eggleston: Nick had done by the time he was in his twenties.

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Samantha: He had Batman Batman had Alfred, and Alfred was what ex

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Samantha: British intelligence like he was his own like secret spy agent like I can only imagine, and then I mean realistically, though Dick was both raised by Alfred and Batman, but they had also other supporting characters that were there to give him the stuff that like they couldn't give him

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Dr. Edgar Ramos: You know. Maybe I don't know if you guys have read back back in the eighties, I think it was so. My.

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Dr. Edgar Ramos: I wasn't there. I wasn't there for that time.

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Dr. Edgar Ramos: Sorry, some of us are a little bit older, but.

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Tad Eggleston: I was. I read some, possibly.

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Dr. Edgar Ramos: I remember.

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Tad Eggleston: When Jason Todd died.

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Dr. Edgar Ramos: This is what was running through my mind is watching. And right now I'm just still speaking, only on relational is that as I was watching. You know

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Dr. Edgar Ramos: Grayson with his relationships.

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Dr. Edgar Ramos: The thing that came to my mind is is early relationships with Starfire.

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Dr. Edgar Ramos: and how? And I and I.

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Tad Eggleston: Heard about those more than I've read them. But yeah.

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Dr. Edgar Ramos: Yeah. So I was thinking about that, and the intensity of that was, and the difficulties they had, and you know.

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Dr. Edgar Ramos: tribute to George Perez back then. But I was like, Wow, he's really evolved from that, you know, level of of relationship to to now, like he had the. He was like the very caring and loving. But he didn't have the the suave, the debonair, that he has now. So it like it was.

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Tad Eggleston: Confidence. I mean, that's fine.

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Tad Eggleston: What I remember about, and why I never got huge into nightwing. It's like

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Tad Eggleston: for a long time. When I read

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Tad Eggleston: when I'd come across nightwing because I never really read nightwing. So so like anybody who's a huge nightwing fan, don't

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Tad Eggleston: you're welcome to email us at 22 panels podcast@gmail.com. I love getting email. But but like don't hate me because I'm speaking only from limited experience. It always felt like he just had like that inferiority complex like he knew he wasn't batman, but he didn't want to be a sidekick anymore.

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Tad Eggleston: And well, that was his whole struggle found him.

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Dr. Edgar Ramos: Like Batman. Yeah, he wasn't quite batman, but he was evolving when he turned into nightwing. And what is it? Tales of the teen Titans like the Trigon. I think it was, but he was with Starfire, and you can still see that like he just wasn't. Yeah, I think your word is good. He wasn't confident enough. He wasn't.

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Dr. Edgar Ramos: He wasn't himself yet where he's at now. And you just see that evolution of relationally, even around people leadership, and his confidence, and that just really has.

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Dr. Edgar Ramos: He's a whole different character from what I.

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Tad Eggleston: Probably the most nightwing I read was actually, during No Man's Land.

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Dr. Edgar Ramos: I read all of No Man's Land when it came out.

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Tad Eggleston: And I found myself annoyed by him. As often as you know. It's like

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Tad Eggleston: Dick. There's a ton going on, and you're still being upset

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Tad Eggleston: with Batman. You know there was a little bit of that in night's end, too.

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Tad Eggleston: You know where it's like I've moved on. Let me stay in blood haven stop calling me.

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Tad Eggleston: I mean. I don't think he ever quite said that, but there was that feeling.

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Samantha: I think it's interesting, like looking at like, because we really have seen him like grow up like realistically, we saw him as a little boy. Now we're seeing him as like.

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Samantha: what is he like? Maybe thirties like mid to late thirties somewhere in there.

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Tad Eggleston: I mean in comic book land. We don't. We don't age like that right?

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Larry Woods: Okay.

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Tad Eggleston: Batman didn't turn 30 forever. Batman was 29. The reason Dark Knight returns exists is because on the morning of his 30th birthday Frank Miller just realized that he was older than Batman, and he couldn't. He needed to do something about that.

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Samantha: It makes sense feel it. I feel it in my heart.

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Samantha: But, like you see him go through like the the stages of like the identity versus like role confusion when it's like, you know, those early teen years. So like you're starting of twenties. And like, I feel like you see that with him, or like he's trying to get his identity like. That's why you're annoyed with him because he doesn't know who he is. So how are you supposed to read him and relate with him on, you know, a more intimate level when he doesn't even know who he is?

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Dr. Edgar Ramos: Right.

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Samantha: So you're you're wanting a character to give you something and say, like, this is, Yeah, I can identify with this person because they fulfill whatever this need is within me. But this person doesn't even know who they are.

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Tad Eggleston: Well, and.

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Dr. Edgar Ramos: He's still this. He's still the same kid. Because, you know, when you're looking at the really like, he's grown up emotionally with relationships, and that you've seen that evolution. But every time you see that conversation with Batman at the end, it's just like Batman. Where are you? I'm all alone. You left me, batman like you still see that like I need Batman. I'm all alone here like you. Still, he went. He he was Robin again like that wasn't Grayson that was Robin

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Dr. Edgar Ramos: dogging. And it was like really funny to see like this is a man who's who's, you know, doing all these flips and turns women chasing him like flying out, you know, saving like just evolved into a full on super spy.

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Dr. Edgar Ramos: But then, when he talks to Batman, you see that kid again, and I think that both whoever really adapted that part did so well at showing the evolution of his maturity, but still the vulnerability of his innocence like it still shows that he's still that kid under Batman's Wing. He still looks up to Batman.

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Tad Eggleston: I also.

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Tad Eggleston: I was really struck by like when he went home and

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Tad Eggleston: worked with Alfred to put on the the costume and the we are performers.

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Tad Eggleston: And that that also makes me sit back and wonder particularly in light of

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Tad Eggleston: you know how hard it is for him when batman's not on the other end of the line. How hard it is for him when he has to go talk to his brothers about. Yeah, I lied because I needed to. I know we said we'd never lie to each other. But Bruce asked me to

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Tad Eggleston: blah blah! How much of this suave Grayson that we're seeing is performance.

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Tad Eggleston: confidence that he's developed, and how much is he acting.

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Dr. Edgar Ramos: I think that's a very deep question.

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Dr. Edgar Ramos: Well, even when he was what they were at the diner when he's telling them, you know this

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Dr. Edgar Ramos: that he lied. Whatever did he say? Bruce asked me to, or did he say? Batman asked me to.

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Tad Eggleston: They weren't at a diner. They were on a rooftop.

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Dr. Edgar Ramos: Yeah, that's right, yeah.

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Larry Woods: Let me see if I can.

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Tad Eggleston: I don't know that he specifically, I think he just said he.

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Dr. Edgar Ramos: To me. There's a difference. When he when he speaks

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Dr. Edgar Ramos: he vacillates when certain I think emotional stances when he says Bruce, and then when he says Batman.

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Tad Eggleston: Right.

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Dr. Edgar Ramos: And I. And I think when he references, Bruce, there's like a a more.

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Tad Eggleston: He always references. I think he references Bruce, when he's telling them that that

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Tad Eggleston: Bruce didn't need them anymore for the Batarangs that he gave them

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Tad Eggleston: But I think when he's talking about

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Tad Eggleston: Well, actually, with Batgirl.

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Tad Eggleston: yeah, with Batgirl, he said. He asked. He didn't say he didn't use a name. It was her that said he asked, I get it, Batman asks, and you say, yes.

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Tad Eggleston: yeah.

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Larry Woods: Yeah, he.

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Tad Eggleston: But yeah, he definitely has a different relationship with Bruce versus Batman.

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Dr. Edgar Ramos: And I think it shows when he's relaying. And that's where I think you see his own vacillation of when it's Batman. It's like, that's dad.

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Dr. Edgar Ramos: and Bruce is more family.

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Samantha: I I think Bruce is like the father. Batman is like the patriarch.

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Dr. Edgar Ramos: Yeah, like? Batman asked. I gotta do Bruce like he can argue with Bruce, but he can't argue with Batman.

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Dr. Edgar Ramos: So I think you definitely see that that relationship. And yeah.

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Dr. Edgar Ramos: it was. It was a good dynamic. Then, Damien being Damien.

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Samantha: Impulsive.

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Tad Eggleston: I love. Well, I love that Damien is the only one that's like, yeah, of course.

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Samantha: Yeah, I love that. He like gave like gave him a hug.

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Samantha: Aren't you.

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Tad Eggleston: Going to tell me I'm an ass for hiding, for for doing it all. Don't you already know you're an ass.

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Larry Woods: Hell.

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Tad Eggleston: See the point having to bother with it.

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Dr. Edgar Ramos: I I love that part I was like, that's, I'm like, Yeah.

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Tad Eggleston: Means the only one that's like. Of course.

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Dr. Edgar Ramos: Yeah, that's it.

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Dr. Edgar Ramos: So it is, you know. Like.

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Samantha: It's a Tuesday that makes sense.

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Dr. Edgar Ramos: Yeah, but it's I was like his relationship with Bruce and Batman where Damien stands. So it was. It.

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Tad Eggleston: Well and and like, particularly for those of us who

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Tad Eggleston: are lucky enough to have read like super sons, and and, like the Damien.

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Tad Eggleston: fallen in love with the Damien. That isn't quite as serious as that original. Grant Morrison. Damien.

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Tad Eggleston: It's easy to forget that. Oh, yeah, like he was raised by his mom and grandfather.

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Samantha: He was a homicidal little maniac.

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Tad Eggleston: You would say fantastic.

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Dr. Edgar Ramos: Come on!

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Tad Eggleston: Yeah, it's like when I'm reading, when I'm reading birds of prey. Now, which another fantastic, you know, Kelly Thompson's run on Birds of prey is just amazing.

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Tad Eggleston: I have to remind myself of like that. The early Batgirl

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Tad Eggleston: issues before before she even started talking right. It's like, Oh, yes, Cassandra Cain has come so far because she laughs now.

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Samantha: Yep.

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Samantha: it's it's the evolution. And like the theme of like identity, like, How how do you like? How do they form their identity? How do they perceive their identity? How do they give off their identity to other people like? And how do other people then perceive the identity that they are giving off. I feel like that. That was a really big theme within, like the Grayson series, and that like.

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Samantha: because the the trippy part was that

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Samantha: it's almost like the text wanted to confuse you like, is he, Robin? Is he? Grayson? Is he like, is he, Dick, like? Who is he? And it was like, well, I don't know who he is, but the whole time, like

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Samantha: even when he was being thrown those challenges and those questions he always seemed to know who he was in that moment, and he's like, well, sometimes I am Robin. Sometimes I am nightwing, sometimes like right now I'm Grayson like sometimes I'm Dick. Like he. He always knew who he was and he was. He was

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Samantha: comfortable with the fact that he had multiple different types of his identity.

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Tad Eggleston: Right.

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Dr. Edgar Ramos: Well, I mean the title of the book. The title is Grayson.

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Samantha: Yeah.

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Dr. Edgar Ramos: I think that's already in of itself. It's like, I'm not, Robin.

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Dr. Edgar Ramos: I'm not nightling, you know, and I don't think they wanted to call it Dicks, for obvious reasons, but.

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Tad Eggleston: But I also think that there was an element of bond. James Bond.

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Samantha: Yeah.

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Tad Eggleston: To naming it. Grayson.

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Dr. Edgar Ramos: Like. You know how he caught like there was a there was a rationale behind Grayson, you know, and I thought that was clever, very cleverly done, very cleverly done.

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Larry Woods: I think they even explicitly stated it as well right. It was like the whole. I want to say, was it the midnighter where? I think so. I know your rhythm. I know you're you're like jazz right.

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Tad Eggleston: Right.

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Larry Woods: Like, well, yeah, you know, Robin, you know. Jazz. But do you know Punk Rock? And then.

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Tad Eggleston: Right.

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Larry Woods: Good chest.

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Tad Eggleston: Right.

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Larry Woods: Definitely, at least from what I've seen. And I'm definitely looking at this from

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Larry Woods: someone that's not very well read on nightwing in General Batman in general.

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Tad Eggleston: Well, and.

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Larry Woods: This go ahead our 1st time with like Tom Kane, but also nightwing.

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Larry Woods: really cool to sort of see those dynamics, not just with the role, identity and confusion.

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Larry Woods: but also the family dynamics. I think that was one of the cool things regarding because I definitely saw myself in that sort of older child sort of situation. There.

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Tad Eggleston: Yeah.

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Larry Woods: But then also like having to lie to protect my siblings. So it was very interesting for that, and especially the little one like I don't care. I still love you right, my little.

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Tad Eggleston: Right.

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Larry Woods: Right. I thought that was really cool to sort of capture those dynamics. But I 100% felt his struggle. Like he

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Larry Woods: he was Grayson as the agent. He was agent 37 he was. He was Dick with the ladies. No pun intended right just that. He.

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Tad Eggleston: I gotta wonder if if it was Sealy that called them agent 37. And if it's a Kevin Smith

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Tad Eggleston: reference.

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Dr. Edgar Ramos: Really I got a get. Smart reference is what I was getting at it. It reminded me of.

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Tad Eggleston: I mean. I believe that, too. But I meant the 37.

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Dr. Edgar Ramos: Have you not seen clerks.

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Samantha: Oh, it's been such a long time.

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Tad Eggleston: So when they're having the the conversation

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Tad Eggleston: about about Snowball and and what that means. And and initially, Dante thinks that it was a friend that had given him the blowjob, and she's like no, it wasn't sylvan that blew him, I did, and she's and he's like what

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Tad Eggleston: you you told me you'd only been with 3 guys. Well, cause I have only been with 3 guys. But but you know, sometimes when I go out with a guy and things are going well, I go down on him. It's not. Wait a minute. How many dicks have you sucked.

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Samantha: Oh!

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Tad Eggleston: Something like 36 is that up to and including me? 37.

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Larry Woods: Yeah, I got rewatch that movie. And there's your explicit rating. You got it.

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Tad Eggleston: So so I can't help but wonder.

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Tad Eggleston: I mean 37 is just, I mean, particularly when we only know other agents as one in 8.

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Dr. Edgar Ramos: Yes.

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Tad Eggleston: 37 is kind of an odd number to pick.

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Samantha: That's funny.

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Tad Eggleston: I mean, it is also Nuke Lelouch's number in Bull Durham. So maybe somebody had just watched, you know, an old baseball movie recently. But

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Tad Eggleston: yeah, my my wife is hearing enough of us to to text me, wow, is this part of your psychocomicology discussion?

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Samantha: It is.

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Dr. Edgar Ramos: Funny because I was trying to figure out. Does the 3 7 represent the letters of the alphabet? 7 is G, you know. Then I'm like, well, the 3 is C. I'm like, what does the C stand for? You know.

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Tad Eggleston: Yeah, yeah.

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Dr. Edgar Ramos: Great. Then I'm like, so that I was looking at it very simply, I guess. All right. I gotta ask, did anybody struggle with the 1st book.

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Dr. Edgar Ramos: yes, with the with the.

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Tad Eggleston: Little.

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Dr. Edgar Ramos: Issue, one.

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Tad Eggleston: Little, yeah, and and and.

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Dr. Edgar Ramos: How did they just.

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Tad Eggleston: Actually one of the things I was going to bring up. As Lee was talking about not having a lot of experience with Batman and whatnot is, I don't have a lot of new 52 experience.

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Dr. Edgar Ramos: Yeah, I have not.

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Tad Eggleston: So. So I but I do know enough about the new 52 to know that

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Tad Eggleston: it's kind of its own continuity. So I was trying to figure out, okay, what parts of what I know about Dick Grayson actually apply to this character

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Tad Eggleston: versus don't.

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Tad Eggleston: And and Batman in particular, was even weirder inside the new 52. Because, like.

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Tad Eggleston: because Grant Morrison was in the middle of his phenomenal run.

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Tad Eggleston: Batman was the book that didn't entirely follow the new 52. So like.

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Samantha: No. 52 is just weird. It was. It was a weird time. Which is why we went into the rebirth.

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Tad Eggleston: Right? So so yeah, I tried to take it as much as possible, just as it was.

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Tad Eggleston: rather than thinking too much about what backstory applied.

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Samantha: Continuity in New 52 was just all over. The place, like.

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Tad Eggleston: Right.

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Samantha: The stories

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Samantha: kind of mismatched like. There were so many different issues that you had to read to bridge gaps between other stories that it was like, Wait a minute like I read 52 when I was in grad school. So that was my, that was my read while I was in grad school, and even I had a hard time in like the 1st

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Samantha: volume of Grayson, remembering like, Wait a minute like what happened like. I remember this, but I don't. I don't remember that like, so where's the piece that I'm missing?

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Samantha: I just, I know.

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Tad Eggleston: New 52 overall has, like love, hate, relationship that people have with it people who were heavy into the continuity before New 52 happened tend to hate it entirely.

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Tad Eggleston: Whereas there are plenty of people that like are in and out, that like

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Tad Eggleston: absolutely adore it because of some of the great stories that got told

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Tad Eggleston: because of the lack of continuity.

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Samantha: That was a whole injustice happened during the new. So that was that was a great. That was a great story. Until you hit the last couple of pages, and you were like what the heck just happened here.

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Samantha: So that was it. It had a lot of

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Samantha: it had a lot of good stories. It had a lot of good character development happen within it. But the continuity was all over the place that you never fully understood. Like what was.

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Tad Eggleston: Right.

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Samantha: What was happening. So I think that's why it was really hard.

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Samantha: at least initially, to get into the 1st volume of Grayson, because.

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Tad Eggleston: Right.

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Samantha: You you don't really know. Like, where is this coming from? Like? What is what? What was.

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Tad Eggleston: Like why is, why is Dick dead? Yeah, apparently Luther killed him. But but huh! What.

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Dr. Edgar Ramos: Superman is not superman anymore, and I didn't. I didn't.

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Tad Eggleston: Well, that was actually, I think, an issue from what they called convergence. So so like that was like a weird offshoot event inside of New 52. I don't know if there was actually a long period where Superman wasn't. I think it might have just been

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Tad Eggleston: like the convergence issues. I don't know.

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Dr. Edgar Ramos: Yeah.

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Tad Eggleston: I was.

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Dr. Edgar Ramos: I was a little confused.

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Tad Eggleston: I enjoyed that story like if I by taking it as just a standalone.

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Tad Eggleston: I tried to just take it out of context. Just think of it as a fun story like.

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Tad Eggleston: but yeah, it was a little weird.

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Dr. Edgar Ramos: So as as a whole, I know we talked about the relationship as a whole to me, like knowing

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Dr. Edgar Ramos: Dick Grayson from, you know, early stuff, and I mostly only read him. I didn't really read him in Batman. I read him a lot in teen Titans. I.

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Tad Eggleston: Titans.

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Dr. Edgar Ramos: So that I used to read back in the eighties because the

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Dr. Edgar Ramos: true story here most of those issues were in the quarter box back in the comic book shop, so.

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Tad Eggleston: There you go!

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Dr. Edgar Ramos: They were cheap reads that I can get. So that's what I read.

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Tad Eggleston: Was it actually a quarter box in the eighties?

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Tad Eggleston: I mean, that wasn't actually that much of a discount.

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Dr. Edgar Ramos: It was. It was a. It was in the quarter box. Yeah, they were all quarterback, but it was one quarter only.

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Tad Eggleston: No, I understand. But what I'm saying is, I want to say that like Cover Price was 40 cents.

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Dr. Edgar Ramos: So it was 65 cents.

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Tad Eggleston: Okay. Okay.

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Dr. Edgar Ramos: 65, and they just jumped to 75, like in in 86 somewhere around there. But yeah.

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Tad Eggleston: Okay.

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Dr. Edgar Ramos: They were in the quarterbacks. So it was. It was much more affordable. I can get 3 comics instead of one. Okay.

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Tad Eggleston: I like that.

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Dr. Edgar Ramos: When I was looking at like, and I.

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Tad Eggleston: So it's like the dollar box. Now.

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Dr. Edgar Ramos: Yeah, pretty much so. I didn't read the whole thing. Obviously, I read the 1st 3 books so far, and it's it was really kind of to me conceptually, was like.

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Dr. Edgar Ramos: it's what used to be the boy. Wonder now, shown as like his independence as a man, but still showing you that. And I'm trying to. I was trying to put myself in Tom King's Head like this is a man who's who's

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Dr. Edgar Ramos: solving things, you know, acting mature, you know, relationships, you know, struggles with, you know, familiar things. But at the end of the day this is a a

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Dr. Edgar Ramos: a man who's still struggling with his inner childhood, still struggling with the shadow of Batman. No matter what he can't get past the shadow of Batman and his vulnerability of he still needs that father figure in his life that he he doesn't have a father figure that. And I think we said earlier he didn't, that he processed through this more. I think he may have processed through it more. I think he's

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Dr. Edgar Ramos: he shows himself better than Batman does, but I think he's just

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Dr. Edgar Ramos: as traumatized and scarred as Batman is. It's just that we see

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Dr. Edgar Ramos: the better sides of it, like his adaptive skills, are much more socially acceptable.

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Dr. Edgar Ramos: But he's still that kid, you know, on that phone, saying, Where are you? I'm left all alone. He's still that kid. And for me, that's what it's Tom King showing like, you know it's funny because I put myself in his head. Going like this is a guy who's fighting a war or in war, and he's still like he's scared. He's still a scared kid fighting a war, and he acts and does the war. He he's

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Dr. Edgar Ramos: doing what he needs to do. But internally he's still he's in his admittance and vulnerability of fear is still existent. And I think that's to me what really got me to see this character really like this character, and really understand Tom King's point. Like

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Dr. Edgar Ramos: you can be tough, you can be smart. You can be the super spy.

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Dr. Edgar Ramos: but we all still have that inner youth in us, that inner, that little kid in us that still gets scared and still wants our dad, or still wants that that support from that father figure that you know authority figure that helps us get through this like, you know, he's in there for Batman.

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Dr. Edgar Ramos: you know, and he still needs them. And that's to me. What I kind of was seeing is that he can have all these relationships heck even in some of the panels when when he's sitting there. You he looks like Batman, you know. You put, you know the cow over him you put, you know. He looks like Batman, you know, and it's funny. It's like

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Dr. Edgar Ramos: he can act like him. He can talk like him. He can even look like him. But he's not batman, and nor will he ever really be batman. He's his own person, but he's still a child struggling with fears and and the realities of those fears. And and that's what I thought was that sensitivity that Tom puts on paper, I think, is great like showing that. You know you can.

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Dr. Edgar Ramos: I think I mean Tom, for everybody out there. Everyone knows that Tom works for the CIA, and if I understand the story correctly, is, after you know, 9, 11. He wanted to

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Dr. Edgar Ramos: help out or whatnot, and he went in there. And and that's and it's funny, because that's what I was seeing. Grace is that he wants to help out. He wants to do what he needs to do to infiltrate and fall through with Batman. But he's still scared. He still needs them, and it's like I think Tom was.

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Tad Eggleston: Well.

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Dr. Edgar Ramos: Story in there.

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Tad Eggleston: I'll actually take it a step further, please.

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Tad Eggleston: because, you know, post 9 11. Tom signed on with the CIA,

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Tad Eggleston: and it was like 2,011 roughly.

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Tad Eggleston: that he asked his wife if it was okay for him to

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Tad Eggleston: to leave the CIA and become a novelist.

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Tad Eggleston: and 2,012 is when once crowded, Sky came out

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Tad Eggleston: his his one and only novel, so, and it

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Tad Eggleston: met with some acclaim, met with some criticism and didn't sell great

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Tad Eggleston: So here you are, 2,015,

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Tad Eggleston: you know. He left the CIA after a decade. Not

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Tad Eggleston: not as starry eyed, I think, as he went in. I mean, I think he was smart enough that he didn't go in completely starry eyed, but but both from conversations with him

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Tad Eggleston: on this show and from

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Tad Eggleston: reading Sheriff of Babylon. I think there was at least some disillusionment by the time he left

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Tad Eggleston: about exactly what they were doing and how effective. It was

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Tad Eggleston: And then he tried to be a novelist.

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Tad Eggleston: and, like I was just glancing at the

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Tad Eggleston: wired review of it. And it was essentially like

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Tad Eggleston: Tom King wrote a comic book, but he made it a novel, you know, not not in like

343
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Tad Eggleston: the most flattering way.

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Tad Eggleston: you know, I mean thankfully through like family connections. He interned at both Marvel and DC. So he knew people. You know. He spent some time on the comic con circuit with

345
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Tad Eggleston: with once crowded sky. And and you know, suddenly he had an opportunity to do some writing at at

346
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Tad Eggleston: DC. But I'm not certain what level his confidence was at that point.

347
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Tad Eggleston: you know, where, where he felt about himself as a writer, where he felt about himself as

348
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Tad Eggleston: as anything, and I think that shows through as well. I'm not not saying that

349
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Tad Eggleston: I'm not projecting that. I know Tom was a mess or anything like that. I don't want to want to say that, but I know there have been times in his life where he has been, so I'm certain that he was drawing from some of those, because because there is a lot of that with this, it's like Grayson from the get go is like, Okay, I really don't want to be doing this I'd rather be with my family. I'd rather be

350
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Tad Eggleston: in Gotham, but I understand that since my identity is known, it's safer for them if I'm dead, and at least at least Batman put me to this good use infiltrating this scary organization.

351
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Tad Eggleston: But like from issue one, it's like, Okay, I'm making the best of this situation.

352
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Tad Eggleston: More than this is where I want to be. This is what I what I was meant to do.

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Samantha: I I think it's interesting because you made a point in saying like, you know, Tom called his wife and said, Can I? Can I come home now like, can I, you know, can I.

354
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Tad Eggleston: Well, I think he was home, but he asked asked if he could quit the CIA and become a novelist.

355
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Samantha: He Grayson has. There's a there's a panel in there where Grayson's on the phone sitting on the bed, you know, talking about mentioning.

356
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Samantha: and it's like it. It mirrors so so perfectly and like, I think that's that is one of the things that Tom King does very well is that he has like these, these very human relationships, and and the way that he demonstrates, you know the fear, the way he demonstrates, like

357
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Samantha: the family, like wanting to be a part of the family, but having something that's like keeping you back like, whether it's like your work responsibility, whether it's like, you know, something that that you've got to be doing. He writes about that. Well, because that is something very personal to him.

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Tad Eggleston: Yeah.

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Dr. Edgar Ramos: He writes, I think the difference in some that I read books that are like quote psychological is that they almost try to tell you what to do about problems and what should be done or what could be done. And to me, so far, like reading this Thomas release is, isn't trying to tell you what to do, what you should do. What could be done. Tom is

360
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Dr. Edgar Ramos: is working through his problems, or how he works.

361
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Tad Eggleston: He's trying to show you an issue

362
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Tad Eggleston: and show you an attempt to work through it.

363
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Tad Eggleston: And sometimes it's effective. And sometimes it's not.

364
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Dr. Edgar Ramos: And see.

365
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Dr. Edgar Ramos: He's definitely now.

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Tad Eggleston: I mean, that is, yeah. I mean to me. That's the biggest recurring theme of Tom King. He's not telling you how to how to get through your problems. He's showing you problems. He's showing you people trying to work through them in realistic ways.

367
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Tad Eggleston: And they're not always successful.

368
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Larry Woods: Yeah, and at least with the sorry, go ahead.

369
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Dr. Edgar Ramos: Go ahead!

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Larry Woods: Yeah. And I think the the means in which that wouldn't. Grayson was with the lying. Right is lying. Okay is lying a means to an end. And is that okay? Even though it maybe pisses off your family. Right? It's it's interesting. Because that was

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Larry Woods: it was interesting. What you said Ted, is, I didn't take it from like the sort of counterterroristic sort of point of view with Tom King's experience, I took it from the sort of Mk. Ultra, and the sort of historicity behind that.

372
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Tad Eggleston: But.

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Larry Woods: So it was like this whole idea of lying and deceiving and manipulating people. And

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Larry Woods: to this sort of hypnos technology, even with some of the interactions between the the matron and him. It was interesting. It's like, Oh, like, are you using this? Even if you tell me to stop? Are you just gonna make me stop, anyway, or I'm done right

375
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Larry Woods: it for me. It was much more of like.

376
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Larry Woods: how can he sort of stay true to his morals of values, albeit going back to what Dr. Amos said regarding Batman like, he wants to kind of be there with Dad right? And live the sort of dad's value. I don't kill right. That was an ongoing thing there.

377
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Larry Woods: but he's also very much like struggling, trying to be. That

378
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Larry Woods: person is still being humorous, which I think is the way he sort of coped through all of that right. And again, I would have to rely on y'all here. I don't know how well he's processed his sort of traumatic experience with his parents dying as well, but

379
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Larry Woods: I could definitely say he smiles a lot more than Batman.

380
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Tad Eggleston: Yeah. Definitely smiles more than batman.

381
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Dr. Edgar Ramos: Depends what era of batman you're looking at, you know. Older. There was a whole bunch of cynical. Then it got dark.

382
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Tad Eggleston: Yeah, that's true. Pre 19 eighties. Batman Adam West really loves smiling.

383
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Dr. Edgar Ramos: Right. Old Batman was always smiling.

384
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Dr. Edgar Ramos: You know what's funny. You didn't really see books work through a lot of

385
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Dr. Edgar Ramos: trauma like, you know, even like older spider-man. They addressed it, but it was never really like you didn't see the process of what they were going through to, too, in depth. It was good that they touched on it like this was a history. But you know you didn't see Superman struggle. You didn't see not any of these, but you didn't even see Batman struggle like in the early batman. It wasn't really.

386
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Tad Eggleston: Oh, yeah. No.

387
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Dr. Edgar Ramos: Like. So you so

388
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Dr. Edgar Ramos: so you're really seeing it now, just the depths of it really kind of come into. And I think.

389
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Dr. Edgar Ramos: even though it's been for several years going on now a lot of years. I think we're still in the infancy stage of how this is, how it's going with these characters like really fleshing out their you know, their mental health, and I think that's the beauty of where we're at right now, and I think.

390
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Tad Eggleston: Oh, absolutely!

391
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Dr. Edgar Ramos: Tom is, is doing great with it because he's he's

392
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Dr. Edgar Ramos: projecting onto these characters, his process, his mental health, and and how he processed through it, and he's writing it down because I think he's also processing his own and then sharing it in written format and prose. And I think that's that's the beauty of it. And I think we see a lot with it. I mean, you look at Jeff Lemire as well. I mean, he does. Yeah. Parent child relationships is almost everything that he writes about his parent child relationship. So you really get to see that. And it's it's it's interesting and fascinating that these writers are are doing these things. I think Tom is notorious for me is

393
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Dr. Edgar Ramos: the depths about his. Ptsd. Is what I think is just.

394
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Dr. Edgar Ramos: He's

395
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Dr. Edgar Ramos: I don't know what his training is, nor do I assume to know what his level of training is, but his his capacity for explaining trauma in a way that's not clinical, so people can just feel it and experience it is, I think.

396
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Tad Eggleston: Right.

397
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Dr. Edgar Ramos: He's a master at is that, you know, and understand what trauma is, never having to read a Dsm. Or having to go like. Well, I'm going to diagnose, and these are the symptoms. Never once does he calculate symptoms or describe a symptom like, you know, straight out of, you know, a clinician's handbook. He's telling you the story in the process as lived through, and I think that's the mastery of what he does, either through his own personal experience or whatnot. But yeah, those are the things I'd love to ask is.

398
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Dr. Edgar Ramos: are you sharing your personal experience of trauma? You know what you, how you've learned how it feels. Because or do you have some training behind it? Because he definitely shows it definitely shows it. And that's the fascinating part.

399
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Tad Eggleston: I I wanna go back to something that Lee mentioned a second ago. Because I I

400
00:43:21.720 --> 00:43:28.380
Tad Eggleston: I think it is a big part of of this book, and that's the nature of

401
00:43:31.890 --> 00:43:33.020
Tad Eggleston: buying.

402
00:43:33.260 --> 00:43:36.520
Samantha: And what constitutes a lie?

403
00:43:37.440 --> 00:43:41.430
Tad Eggleston: When a lie is okay.

404
00:43:41.740 --> 00:43:51.290
Tad Eggleston: when a lie is only okay, if it's not discovered, I mean because because I mean like.

405
00:43:52.090 --> 00:44:02.270
Tad Eggleston: And I think the 3 relation or the the 3 different responses are so good. You know Tim and Jason are just pissed as hell, and they're not willing to.

406
00:44:02.590 --> 00:44:09.629
Tad Eggleston: You know Barbara is angry, but mostly forgives him.

407
00:44:10.600 --> 00:44:14.899
Tad Eggleston: And and Damien was like, Yeah, of course.

408
00:44:15.590 --> 00:44:16.010
Dr. Edgar Ramos: Love you.

409
00:44:16.600 --> 00:44:18.030
Larry Woods: Still an asshole. Yeah, yeah.

410
00:44:20.090 --> 00:44:21.300
Tad Eggleston: Because

411
00:44:23.040 --> 00:44:33.010
Tad Eggleston: I mean, if you look at that lie 1st of all, the the lie is 100% in omission. He he allowed them to continue to think that he was dead.

412
00:44:34.240 --> 00:44:41.549
Tad Eggleston: which already puts it in a weird realm of lie, you know. Is it a lie? If you don't say it versus.

413
00:44:42.790 --> 00:44:43.870
Tad Eggleston: you know

414
00:44:45.590 --> 00:44:52.570
Tad Eggleston: particularly, because I mean obviously in his case, he knew that they'd want to know. But but how many times are lies of omission.

415
00:44:52.960 --> 00:44:55.569
Tad Eggleston: not even entirely, deliberately lies about.

416
00:44:55.570 --> 00:44:57.490
Samantha: Just never never.

417
00:44:57.490 --> 00:44:58.220
Tad Eggleston: Came up. You.

418
00:44:58.220 --> 00:44:59.779
Samantha: Ever thought to tell so.

419
00:44:59.780 --> 00:45:06.230
Tad Eggleston: So this thing, Hello! How are you? It's okay.

420
00:45:06.230 --> 00:45:07.279
Dr. Edgar Ramos: All of that.

421
00:45:07.280 --> 00:45:08.730
Tad Eggleston: I'm like, where is my phone?

422
00:45:08.730 --> 00:45:10.963
Tad Eggleston: It was yours, Dr. Ramos.

423
00:45:12.060 --> 00:45:14.749
Tad Eggleston: You left it at home, and it rang

424
00:45:19.290 --> 00:45:28.400
Tad Eggleston: But yeah, so I mean? The the 1st is, what's you know, I mean, how how do lies of omission versus lies of commission

425
00:45:29.600 --> 00:45:30.650
Tad Eggleston: differ?

426
00:45:31.306 --> 00:45:35.319
Tad Eggleston: The second is like, how much does the motive

427
00:45:35.610 --> 00:45:41.979
Tad Eggleston: behind the lie matter, you know. In this case he's lying to protect them.

428
00:45:43.255 --> 00:45:54.149
Tad Eggleston: I mean even more than he's lying to protect his cover, going undercover and doing this thing. He's lying because he, his

429
00:45:58.150 --> 00:46:03.529
Tad Eggleston: identity, has been outed so to be around them puts them in danger.

430
00:46:07.610 --> 00:46:09.769
Tad Eggleston: But then, again at the same time

431
00:46:10.090 --> 00:46:13.259
Tad Eggleston: you flip it over and like.

432
00:46:16.450 --> 00:46:18.160
Tad Eggleston: should they ever

433
00:46:18.970 --> 00:46:25.919
Tad Eggleston: swing the roofs of Gotham again, etc, they need to have ridiculous trust for each other.

434
00:46:26.360 --> 00:46:31.190
Tad Eggleston: They need to be able to know that

435
00:46:31.840 --> 00:46:45.609
Tad Eggleston: the other one will be there to catch them or the other one's watching their back, or whatever. I brought up Aaron Sorkin earlier, and there's a there's a West wing episode that that centers around

436
00:46:48.890 --> 00:46:52.659
Tad Eggleston: a decorated female pilot being

437
00:46:53.130 --> 00:47:04.340
Tad Eggleston: court-martialed for disobeying an order about having a relationship with another service member, and and, like

438
00:47:06.310 --> 00:47:10.400
Tad Eggleston: the the people without military experience, are treating it as

439
00:47:10.660 --> 00:47:24.100
Tad Eggleston: you know. Would you ever give that order to a man, would, you know, like Blah, you know, and very, I don't want to downplay the validity of those arguments, but there's a scene

440
00:47:24.250 --> 00:47:29.010
Tad Eggleston: between the President and his chief of staff, where the Chief of Staff, who's had

441
00:47:30.680 --> 00:47:38.409
Tad Eggleston: military experiences is. You know the President's like you don't think that after all that training she knows the difference between

442
00:47:39.470 --> 00:47:52.270
Tad Eggleston: a combat order and another order, and and the Chief of Staff, like they're all combat orders. If you're going into combat with somebody, you can't wonder if they're gonna

443
00:47:52.420 --> 00:47:58.140
Tad Eggleston: you need to know that you're all on the same page.

444
00:47:59.080 --> 00:48:06.580
Tad Eggleston: So I mean, there's just so many different layers to like

445
00:48:07.230 --> 00:48:12.819
Tad Eggleston: both. How do you? How does? How, as Grayson do you make that decision? How, as

446
00:48:17.470 --> 00:48:21.779
Tad Eggleston: Jason or or Tim, or Barbara.

447
00:48:23.030 --> 00:48:24.999
Tad Eggleston: Do you then work through

448
00:48:26.430 --> 00:48:40.620
Tad Eggleston: that when he comes back, you know, is, and this is actually a place where comics often fail us immensely. It's like. Oh, you were the villain! 3 episode or 3 issues ago, and now all is forgiven.

449
00:48:41.476 --> 00:48:42.330
Samantha: I agree.

450
00:48:42.330 --> 00:48:48.423
Samantha: I feel like they do a really good job in like recapping that, because they're all you know.

451
00:48:49.760 --> 00:49:03.719
Samantha: Todd and Barbara like they're they're all like upset with him for lying because they're like you like you said like, how am I going to trust you to catch me when I fall like when you have lied to me like I thought you were. I thought you were dead, like we were all under the impression you were dead

452
00:49:03.730 --> 00:49:19.769
Samantha: like any. Oh, because he told you not to tell us like so you just didn't tell us. I think it was I. I think they wrapped that up in like the the items that he gives them with, like the secret message, like when he gives them like Batman's first, st like batter batter rings. And it's.

453
00:49:19.770 --> 00:49:36.680
Tad Eggleston: But here, here's my question there, because for all of them I also felt an element of Oh, my God! You're saying these wonderful things to me. Oh, wait! It's just a code. So I don't even know if you mean that thing that you just said to me, because it's a code.

454
00:49:36.680 --> 00:49:39.459
Samantha: But the code is the one that they played when they were kids.

455
00:49:39.460 --> 00:49:58.650
Dr. Edgar Ramos: If I can. So so I hear what all 3 of you are saying. And I think and maybe this is the psychologist in me. I think we're missing the point to me wasn't the lie. The lie was irrelevant because the lie was a metaphor for basically look who got mad. It was the people that internally said, You're acting like fucking batman.

456
00:49:59.240 --> 00:50:12.080
Dr. Edgar Ramos: And who's the one? And who's the one that said, Oh, this is the batman you're liking like my dad. Yeah, I love my dad right? So what it was is the lie was the metaphor for you, Fucker, you're not being one of you're not one of us, robins. You're.

457
00:50:12.080 --> 00:50:19.039
Tad Eggleston: Well, and it wasn't even totally a metaphor, because with the robins they talked about like we don't lie to each other. Bruce lies.

458
00:50:19.040 --> 00:50:21.169
Tad Eggleston: of course we don't lie to each other.

459
00:50:21.170 --> 00:50:25.990
Dr. Edgar Ramos: It wasn't the lie. It's the. It's the performance of your being a batman, not a robin.

460
00:50:25.990 --> 00:50:26.600
Larry Woods: Right.

461
00:50:26.600 --> 00:50:43.419
Dr. Edgar Ramos: And that it was more the it was more of a sign of like loyalty. Like, you're not one of us now, you you're up there. You acted like him. You're not supposed to be him. You're supposed to be one of us, and that's where I think that that's where they got hurt now, when it comes to their objects that what does Batman do?

462
00:50:43.670 --> 00:51:04.200
Dr. Edgar Ramos: You know Batman gives a little bit to bring them back in, like, you know it was manipulation, you know, so I do think that he was manipulating them back, using that as a tool. And I don't. I think that's what you were saying to manipulate them back into like, it's kind of like domestic violence, like, you know. Let me slap you, and then tomorrow I'm gonna get you. I'm gonna get you some roses. I'm going to buy you a pendant and go like.

463
00:51:04.200 --> 00:51:08.210
Tad Eggleston: We went from you, seemingly defending

464
00:51:08.790 --> 00:51:14.789
Tad Eggleston: Grayson here to you, accusing him of domestic violence.

465
00:51:14.790 --> 00:51:16.800
Larry Woods: We're dynamic. We go back and forth.

466
00:51:16.800 --> 00:51:18.160
Tad Eggleston: See Dr. Ramos.

467
00:51:18.160 --> 00:51:38.870
Dr. Edgar Ramos: Well, isn't that Batman Batman will slap you, and you won't recognize it. And then, you know. So that's essentially what Grayson did. It's it's it's the cycle of violence. It's that, you know. Hey? I'm gonna if I'm gonna hurt you. But I'm gonna get you something nice because you're gonna remember the nice thing more than the bad thing I did to you, you know. That's that's what he does, you know, and it's.

468
00:51:39.110 --> 00:51:41.780
Tad Eggleston: It's Batman, you know. That's so. Yeah, it is.

469
00:51:41.780 --> 00:51:55.517
Samantha: I agree with you in the theme and the concept of what you're saying. I would not necessarily compare it to a domestic violence relationship in which they're they're receiving gifts. I I get, I agree with the theme. I agree with the theme.

470
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Dr. Edgar Ramos: That's the cycle of violence. The cycle of violence is is that when you get abused you do something good, because what happens with our memories that we only recall the good things more more times than not than the bad things. So after every abusive relationship, after every abusive tactic, what abusers do is once they hit you or they abuse you. Then they call it the honeymoon stage. They buy you nice things, and they they revel in that because memory wise, you're only going to remember that. And that's what you see, like Batman historically is

471
00:52:22.900 --> 00:52:51.710
Dr. Edgar Ramos: when he does bad things is that he creates these nice things for character, for family run. And that's what you see. What Grayson did is that I'm going to get you these memory things to make it better, and that what I'm saying is that it's not domestic violence that don't confuse. What I'm saying is what I'm saying is, it's the tactic of what is used in a domestic violence. Situation of let me gift you. Let me do you something nice, so you don't remember the bad thing I did. So it's the tact, the tactic, not the domestic violence itself.

472
00:52:51.790 --> 00:52:52.710
Tad Eggleston: Okay, very good.

473
00:52:52.710 --> 00:52:55.299
Tad Eggleston: So we're not calling graces an abusive.

474
00:52:58.350 --> 00:52:59.040
Dr. Edgar Ramos: Hey, Buddy, cool.

475
00:52:59.640 --> 00:53:02.230
Larry Woods: But he's he's not that kind of asshole.

476
00:53:02.230 --> 00:53:05.230
Dr. Edgar Ramos: Yeah, but he's using a tactic from that, you know.

477
00:53:05.470 --> 00:53:14.840
Samantha: And the tactic is all like, what is it like? Sentimental family things like it's all. It all means something to each of them.

478
00:53:15.150 --> 00:53:20.189
Dr. Edgar Ramos: But it's still a tool cause. It's it's a message behind it like us, you know, codes like it's it's still a tool for him.

479
00:53:20.500 --> 00:53:25.730
Dr. Edgar Ramos: So it's it's it's shrouded in still, this, you know, batman esque.

480
00:53:25.730 --> 00:53:26.260
Larry Woods: Yeah.

481
00:53:26.670 --> 00:53:27.260
Tad Eggleston: All right.

482
00:53:27.760 --> 00:53:28.280
Dr. Edgar Ramos: You know.

483
00:53:29.690 --> 00:53:36.379
Dr. Edgar Ramos: but it's good, I mean, nonetheless, it was good. But yeah, I do see the lie stuff. But I I

484
00:53:36.930 --> 00:53:39.510
Dr. Edgar Ramos: he just betrayed them as a robin, and he acted like a.

485
00:53:39.510 --> 00:53:40.290
Tad Eggleston: Yeah.

486
00:53:40.290 --> 00:53:43.850
Samantha: Well cause. At 1 point his identity was batman, like he was a batman.

487
00:53:43.850 --> 00:53:46.349
Tad Eggleston: Yeah, actually, right before this. Yeah.

488
00:53:46.520 --> 00:53:53.199
Tad Eggleston: Right before this, he'd been batman while while Batman was dead.

489
00:53:53.200 --> 00:53:53.790
Samantha: Yeah.

490
00:53:54.050 --> 00:53:57.599
Tad Eggleston: You know he'd been batman to Damien's Robin

491
00:53:58.600 --> 00:54:01.400
Tad Eggleston: for for part of Grant Morrison's run.

492
00:54:02.850 --> 00:54:07.879
Dr. Edgar Ramos: So identity is huge. I mean, I can't wait to read the whole thing and see like. So who the.

493
00:54:07.880 --> 00:54:18.439
Tad Eggleston: Yeah, no, I actually can't remember if I've read volumes 4 and 5, and I know I haven't read Robin War. So I'm actually kind of looking forward to

494
00:54:19.110 --> 00:54:20.660
Tad Eggleston: the the

495
00:54:20.960 --> 00:54:26.916
Tad Eggleston: the reading that I've set up for next month, which is going to be volumes 4 and 5, and Robin war

496
00:54:27.470 --> 00:54:36.220
Tad Eggleston: The reason I wound up throwing Robin Moore in as well is because, apparently like the 1st 2 issues of Robin Moore are part of Volume 5. I think

497
00:54:36.350 --> 00:54:40.590
Tad Eggleston: so. It's like, why not just redo the whole thing.

498
00:54:40.590 --> 00:54:41.060
Larry Woods: Hey?

499
00:54:41.740 --> 00:54:46.089
Larry Woods: Show you that I I wasn't planning to do it, but I I mean I got the omnibus.

500
00:54:46.090 --> 00:54:47.520
Tad Eggleston: You got the omnibus.

501
00:54:47.520 --> 00:55:03.060
Larry Woods: The omnibus, and I was just so stoked with Tom King's running that sort of agent. 37 arc that I just kept going, and I read the next 2 issues like this is weird. This is different. But I'll keep going with it. I was like, Oh, I'm on the next one.

502
00:55:03.200 --> 00:55:03.720
Larry Woods: Yikes.

503
00:55:03.720 --> 00:55:14.429
Tad Eggleston: No, that's okay. That's okay. Yeah, I'm I'm I seem to remember getting to about this point the last time I read it, because

504
00:55:15.010 --> 00:55:22.369
Tad Eggleston: because I remembered him him going back. I didn't remember that batman had amnesia at the time, but I remembered, like the the stuff with the the

505
00:55:22.760 --> 00:55:35.249
Tad Eggleston: the siblings. It's the best way to put it that they're they're siblings, though the Barbara's a weird one, because she's like part sister part lover, depending on like when.

506
00:55:35.250 --> 00:55:37.626
Larry Woods: That's 52 behavior. We don't talk about that.

507
00:55:39.120 --> 00:55:41.099
Tad Eggleston: That I think they're together again.

508
00:55:42.490 --> 00:55:42.960
Dr. Edgar Ramos: Are they.

509
00:55:45.690 --> 00:55:47.700
Tad Eggleston: I know they have been.

510
00:55:48.570 --> 00:55:51.790
Samantha: Wait. Who's who's that? That woman is?

511
00:55:52.400 --> 00:55:53.709
Tad Eggleston: No no night, wait.

512
00:55:53.710 --> 00:55:54.780
Samantha: Oh!

513
00:55:55.450 --> 00:55:59.390
Tad Eggleston: No, no, no, no, no, not Batman and Barbara. No.

514
00:56:00.600 --> 00:56:01.750
Samantha: I'm like.

515
00:56:01.750 --> 00:56:04.430
Tad Eggleston: Barbara, Dick and Barbara.

516
00:56:06.820 --> 00:56:10.020
Larry Woods: Yeah, I have no idea. I I'm just long to ride.

517
00:56:10.430 --> 00:56:11.080
Tad Eggleston: I.

518
00:56:12.300 --> 00:56:15.270
Samantha: Barbara's a lesbian. Barbara's a lesbian, as you know.

519
00:56:15.270 --> 00:56:18.499
Tad Eggleston: I feel like there was a time when she was.

520
00:56:18.820 --> 00:56:20.459
Samantha: Barbara's gone through some.

521
00:56:20.790 --> 00:56:21.320
Dr. Edgar Ramos: Changes.

522
00:56:21.320 --> 00:56:25.100
Tad Eggleston: Different different periods.

523
00:56:25.690 --> 00:56:29.660
Tad Eggleston: Remember, Barbara was also paralyzed for.

524
00:56:29.660 --> 00:56:30.500
Larry Woods: Yeah.

525
00:56:30.500 --> 00:56:31.880
Tad Eggleston: A while, and.

526
00:56:31.880 --> 00:56:33.269
Dr. Edgar Ramos: That she was oracle or something.

527
00:56:33.270 --> 00:56:33.950
Tad Eggleston: Yeah.

528
00:56:34.600 --> 00:56:35.759
Samantha: She was at the computers.

529
00:56:36.790 --> 00:56:39.310
Dr. Edgar Ramos: You know, Barbara's a fascinating character, right?

530
00:56:39.310 --> 00:56:45.239
Dr. Edgar Ramos: I get lost. Yeah, there, there! It's so unread on that that I I yeah, I don't know. I'm.

531
00:56:45.240 --> 00:56:47.650
Samantha: This new 52 behavior, just because.

532
00:56:48.990 --> 00:56:52.181
Tad Eggleston: The new phrase, the new 52 behavior.

533
00:56:53.600 --> 00:56:59.649
Tad Eggleston: But yeah, so I'm looking forward to seeing the wrap up of this, and then I think it will be

534
00:57:01.790 --> 00:57:08.199
Tad Eggleston: the the way I have it laid out now for for anybody who might want to read along with us, and and to give

535
00:57:08.420 --> 00:57:24.239
Tad Eggleston: you guys a little bit more of a idea. I'm still plugging in some of the single issue stuff that he did. But like we'll do Grayson and Robin war for next month and a couple single issues, short story type things, vision.

536
00:57:24.690 --> 00:57:28.129
Tad Eggleston: So we'll do his one non

537
00:57:28.250 --> 00:57:31.950
Tad Eggleston: non DC superhero book. After that.

538
00:57:32.080 --> 00:57:34.670
Tad Eggleston: Come back for Sheriff of Babylon.

539
00:57:34.860 --> 00:57:37.659
Tad Eggleston: which I know Dr. Ramos is going to have to.

540
00:57:37.660 --> 00:57:38.549
Dr. Edgar Ramos: I think I'm on vacation.

541
00:57:38.550 --> 00:57:46.329
Tad Eggleston: Hard to get through, but I still insist it's among Tom's best books. It's so good.

542
00:57:46.330 --> 00:57:47.490
Dr. Edgar Ramos: Strange adventures.

543
00:57:48.360 --> 00:57:51.400
Tad Eggleston: Also so good.

544
00:57:52.174 --> 00:57:58.899
Tad Eggleston: Omega men, which is one of the book. It's like the one book that had enough sales issues that

545
00:57:59.170 --> 00:58:05.649
Tad Eggleston: like, I want to say, he wound up, getting to finish it in the graphic novel form. But not all of the issues came out.

546
00:58:08.220 --> 00:58:12.380
Tad Eggleston: And then we get into to 3 months of of batman

547
00:58:14.140 --> 00:58:22.899
Tad Eggleston: and I kind of like that. We're putting time between the Grayson and the Batman because they're not really quite the same universe.

548
00:58:23.550 --> 00:58:25.529
Tad Eggleston: If that makes sense.

549
00:58:25.530 --> 00:58:26.540
Samantha: And now reverse.

550
00:58:26.540 --> 00:58:28.560
Samantha: Batman is rebirth. Yeah.

551
00:58:29.700 --> 00:58:33.060
Tad Eggleston: So it's after final crisis. It's after.

552
00:58:34.240 --> 00:58:37.410
Dr. Edgar Ramos: But I have to be honest. So I read a lot of these

553
00:58:37.540 --> 00:58:41.429
Dr. Edgar Ramos: out of sequence, you know, cause I read some of these way before. So it's like, now I'm.

554
00:58:41.430 --> 00:58:42.370
Tad Eggleston: Oh, I get it!

555
00:58:42.370 --> 00:58:48.500
Dr. Edgar Ramos: And trying to put them in the sequence that we have them. So I'm like, Okay, because I'm I read Batman rebirth.

556
00:58:49.420 --> 00:58:57.629
Tad Eggleston: Was my first, st I mean, I I think I didn't actually read Grayson at all until

557
00:59:00.010 --> 00:59:02.780
Tad Eggleston: somewhere in the middle of heroes and crisis.

558
00:59:03.030 --> 00:59:03.750
Dr. Edgar Ramos: Okay.

559
00:59:06.260 --> 00:59:13.120
Tad Eggleston: You know I discovered Tom King when Batman proposed to Catwoman, and I went. Wait what.

560
00:59:13.120 --> 00:59:14.730
Samantha: That's what I did, too.

561
00:59:14.730 --> 00:59:26.490
Tad Eggleston: Right, and and I grabbed that issue and I went. Oh, this is amazing! And I immediately went back to the beginning of the run, I went. Holy fuck! This is good, and I've read everything that Tom King has written ever since.

562
00:59:26.490 --> 00:59:29.580
Dr. Edgar Ramos: Heroes in crisis. My! We got me.

563
00:59:29.940 --> 00:59:37.480
Tad Eggleston: Yeah, a heroes in crisis is amazing. Mr. America, I mean, again, like, it's hard to pick favorite Tom King stuff for me.

564
00:59:37.480 --> 00:59:38.900
Dr. Edgar Ramos: There's quite a few.

565
00:59:39.140 --> 00:59:39.990
Dr. Edgar Ramos: There's quite a few.

566
00:59:40.412 --> 00:59:51.580
Tad Eggleston: I can. I can only pick least favorite Tom King because of like how quickly he matured

567
00:59:51.760 --> 00:59:52.990
Tad Eggleston: as a writer.

568
00:59:53.770 --> 01:00:05.910
Tad Eggleston: You know my least favorite is what we just read, and and clearly we all liked it. You know what I mean. If this is your worst comic book work, you're hell of a comic book writer.

569
01:00:05.910 --> 01:00:09.920
Dr. Edgar Ramos: I can't wait till we talk about sheriff, because that's the one that I'm struggling with.

570
01:00:09.920 --> 01:00:10.750
Dr. Edgar Ramos: I don't know.

571
01:00:10.860 --> 01:00:12.500
Tad Eggleston: And.

572
01:00:12.500 --> 01:00:16.250
Dr. Edgar Ramos: I'm gonna I'm gonna reread it, read it, read it again, and.

573
01:00:16.250 --> 01:00:20.870
Tad Eggleston: The scene in the empty swimming pool alone makes Sheriff.

574
01:00:22.750 --> 01:00:23.200
Dr. Edgar Ramos: You know.

575
01:00:23.200 --> 01:00:27.139
Tad Eggleston: Like the opening scene and the talk about chocolate.

576
01:00:28.080 --> 01:00:31.560
Tad Eggleston: I'm not actually doing spoilers spoilers, Lee. You don't have to.

577
01:00:31.560 --> 01:00:32.715
Larry Woods: Alright! Good thanks.

578
01:00:33.100 --> 01:00:37.789
Tad Eggleston: I'm just giving you things to like when you hit it, you're gonna go. Oh, oh, got it!

579
01:00:37.790 --> 01:00:38.990
Tad Eggleston: Attention! Here.

580
01:00:39.210 --> 01:00:40.010
Larry Woods: Got it.

581
01:00:40.010 --> 01:00:41.859
Dr. Edgar Ramos: He did human target, too. Right, did he?

582
01:00:41.860 --> 01:00:43.520
Dr. Edgar Ramos: He did. I love human target.

583
01:00:43.520 --> 01:00:45.539
Dr. Edgar Ramos: That's 1 of my favorite favorite.

584
01:00:45.980 --> 01:00:53.910
Tad Eggleston: From from Batman. We'll do, Mr. Miracle. Heroes in Crisis Superman up in the sky, Rorschach, which I think is criminally underrated.

585
01:00:53.910 --> 01:00:54.280
Dr. Edgar Ramos: Yes.

586
01:00:54.280 --> 01:00:58.600
Tad Eggleston: I understand why? Because there are certain people that for good reason

587
01:00:59.230 --> 01:01:05.880
Tad Eggleston: don't like when watchman is by anybody other than Alan Moore, because DC. Kind of jobbed Alan Moore.

588
01:01:06.130 --> 01:01:12.459
Tad Eggleston: you know. They promised him that they'd give him the rights back after a year with the caveat of

589
01:01:13.070 --> 01:01:18.820
Tad Eggleston: if it goes out of print, and they have famously kept watchmen in print ever since.

590
01:01:22.129 --> 01:01:26.199
Tad Eggleston: At the time there was like graphic novel collections weren't a thing.

591
01:01:26.980 --> 01:01:29.869
Tad Eggleston: you know. It was like the 1st graphic novel collection

592
01:01:30.530 --> 01:01:33.290
Tad Eggleston: stayed in print for an extended period of time.

593
01:01:33.290 --> 01:01:37.620
Samantha: They said, you know, watchmen like we got that forever.

594
01:01:37.930 --> 01:01:48.270
Tad Eggleston: Right. But then we've got strange adventures. Supergirl woman of tomorrow, human target, batman, catwoman, batman, killing time, love everlasting, which might

595
01:01:49.450 --> 01:02:11.420
Tad Eggleston: has another possibility of like my favorite. It's hard to pick a favorite, but it's in the running, too. Gotham City year. One is amazing. Danger Street, the joker story from Batman Brave and the Bold, his Penguin Series. And then we get into Wonder Woman, which I know Samantha loves with me. Helena Windhorn.

596
01:02:11.540 --> 01:02:17.240
Tad Eggleston: animal Pound, Jenny Sparks and Black Canary best of the best, so far.

597
01:02:18.072 --> 01:02:23.987
Tad Eggleston: I I know he's got other stuff on the horizon, even so, you know.

598
01:02:25.460 --> 01:02:25.980
Samantha: Yeah.

599
01:02:25.980 --> 01:02:29.389
Tad Eggleston: Yeah, we're gonna we're gonna get to the end. And there's gonna be another 50.

600
01:02:29.390 --> 01:02:40.190
Tad Eggleston: I was about to say, by the time we get. I mean, right now we're on what issue? 19 of Wonder Woman. And by the time we get to wonder, woman, it'll be into the thirties.

601
01:02:40.360 --> 01:02:45.490
Samantha: Well, we'll be definitely. I mean, we'll probably on Volume 4 by that point, because Volume 3 comes out

602
01:02:46.220 --> 01:02:47.100
Samantha: May, April.

603
01:02:47.100 --> 01:02:49.170
Tad Eggleston: Oh, we'll be way, I mean again.

604
01:02:49.170 --> 01:02:49.760
Samantha: 4, 5.

605
01:02:49.760 --> 01:02:57.140
Tad Eggleston: We're we're at least 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8.

606
01:03:00.500 --> 01:03:04.060
Tad Eggleston: Yeah, we're more than a year from getting to wonder. Woman.

607
01:03:04.210 --> 01:03:07.529
Samantha: He'll he'll probably be on Volume 4 or 5 will be out by then.

608
01:03:07.530 --> 01:03:08.040
Dr. Edgar Ramos: So, so.

609
01:03:08.040 --> 01:03:08.430
Tad Eggleston: Yeah.

610
01:03:08.430 --> 01:03:09.280
Dr. Edgar Ramos: We have to do.

611
01:03:09.280 --> 01:03:12.479
Tad Eggleston: Maybe 6 by the time we get to it.

612
01:03:13.960 --> 01:03:27.859
Tad Eggleston: and for that matter he'll be. He'll be deep enough into it that we'll have to start to debate. Do we want to read Wonder Woman after penguin, or should we do Helena? Windworm, animal pound, Jenny, you know the miniseries, and then jump into wonder, woman.

613
01:03:27.860 --> 01:03:28.610
Samantha: Yeah.

614
01:03:29.880 --> 01:03:30.720
Samantha: Yes.

615
01:03:31.550 --> 01:03:33.670
Tad Eggleston: Good problems, to have right.

616
01:03:34.070 --> 01:03:35.970
Larry Woods: I could think of worse ones, for sure.

617
01:03:37.030 --> 01:03:38.460
Tad Eggleston: So

618
01:03:39.370 --> 01:03:50.419
Tad Eggleston: thank you guys so much. I'm looking forward to more of this. And for psychocomicology and 22 panels, we will see you after the next page.